Tuesday, October 06, 2009

Has the Obama Administration Embraced Cheneyism?

(updated below with response from Glenn)

While I whole-heartedly concur with Glenn Greenwald's criticism of the methodology and sourcing of this Washington Post article, I do take issue with his view--which is now widely-shared in progressive circles--that "the Obama administration has aggressively defended, justified and embraced the overwhelming bulk of Bush/Cheney Terrorism policies -- the exact ones that caused liberals and Democrats to object so vehemently over the last eight years."

While I tend to agree with Glenn on most terrorism-related policy questions--and I believe progressives and those of us of who value civil liberties should continue to criticize and pressure the Obama administration on this front--I think that equating Obama's policies with those of the Bush administration fundamentally obscures the most dangerous and deplorable elements of the Bush/Cheney approach to terrorism policy.

The signature characteristic of Cheneyism was its disregard for existing legal restraints, best exemplified by the Bush administration's repeated willingness (via people John Yoo and David Addington) to embrace fringy (often patently frivolous) legal arguments to justify acting in ways that the law and the Constitution forbid.

It is easy to forget now, as we debate the policy merits of various provisions of the Patriot Act and FISA, that for years the Bush administration took the position (in secret) that it had the "inherent authority" to disregard those laws altogether, even as it was publicly pushing to have those laws passed or amended.

With respect to detainee policy, the Bush administration originally took the position that it could detain whomever it wanted (whether foreigner or U.S. citizen, at home or abroad) incommunicado for as long as it wanted. It took the position that these detainees were not subject to Geneva protections, were entitled to no process whatsoever, and could be interrogated through torture.

In a thoughtful post at Balkinzation, Deborah Pearlstein pushes back against the assertion--made with respect to detention authority--"that somehow in employing this authority President Obama is channeling Dick Cheney (or perhaps more specifically David Addington and John Yoo)." She writes:

So let’s just recall what their position on Gitmo detention actually was. First, the Bush Administration argued that the President could detain anyone as a matter of inherent authority under Article II of the Constitution. The Obama Administration rejected that position from the outset, and has relied squarely for its detention authority on congressional delegation. What’s the difference? Among other things (including even modest respect for the formal separation of powers), the acknowledgement that there are limits under law to the President’s power to detain. Second, the Bush Administration argued that the independent courts had no authority – none – to review the legality of the detentions at Guantanamo Bay. The Supreme Court – not once but effectively three times – rejected that view. One must credit the conservative-controlled Court and not the Obama Administration for that change. But there is no sense in which the review process available now at Guantanamo is related to the views of Dick Cheney. Third, the Bush Administration rejected the notion that international law, including the Geneva Conventions, could constrain its authority in any way. It invoked the Conventions when it thought them useful to enlarge executive authority. It otherwise elected to apply them only when it thought “consistent” with military “necessity.” Cheney did not believe in international law as law. At least so far, the Obama Administration does.
In adopting these positions, the Bush administration relied, all too often, on objectively indefensible legal arguments that ignored numerous criminal statutes, binding treaties, and controlling Supreme Court precedents.

While the Obama administration has adopted a number of policy positions I disagree with (some very strongly), to my knowledge it has not adopted any policies that lack a defensible legal foundation. And therein lies the core difference between Cheneyism and the approach of the current administration.

I think part of the confusion here stems from the reality that the law itself changed in numerous ways during Bush's eight years in office, sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better. To go back to the example of detention policy, it's important to remember that while the Supreme Court rebuked the Bush administration on numerous occasions, in at least one significant case, the Bush administration won (at least partially). That was United States v. Hamdi in 2004, where the Court held that the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) implicitly granted the president the authority to detain a U.S. citizen (Hamdi), who was picked up in Afghanistan and later held in an U.S. brig, as an enemy combatant subject to the laws of war (i.e., indefinitely).

You can take issue with the Court's reasoning in that case (I certainly do), but it doesn't change the fact that Hamdi pretty clearly provides a legal basis to detain certain people indefinitely (or at least until the war in Afghanistan ends), regardless of whether they have committed any crimes. Relying on the Court's ruling in Hamdi to justify similar detentions can be criticized on a policy level, but it's certainly not an example of Cheneyism.

The same is true with respect to the State Secrets privilege. The Bush administration expanded the State Secrets privilege dramatically, turning it from an occasionally-invoked evidentiary rule to an oft-invoked justiciability rule. That move was rightly criticized, but the fact is that the Bush administration had considerable success in changing the state of the case law. Numerous cases were dismissed by federal courts on State Secrets grounds. Though this change did not come about via legislation, it is nevertheless true that the state of the law on this issue is much different now than it was in 2001. One is free to criticize the Obama administration for invoking a broad (by 2001 standards) interpretation of the State Secrets privilege, but that interpretation (sadly) now has some support in the case law. Whatever this is, it's not Cheneyism.

Similarly, for years the Bush administration operated in violation of FISA and the Patriot Act. FISA was eventually amended to legalize much of what had previously been done illegally. While I join others in calling for changes to those laws and believe the Obama administration deserves to be criticized for opposing such efforts, defending existing statutory authority is not remotely comparable to asserting a right to violate such statutes (and, in fact, repeatedly violating them).

It is certainly true that Obama is continuing many of the Bush administration's policies, but they're the policies from 2008, after the Bush administration's hand had been forced by the Courts or Congress had come to its rescue with legislation. In other words, Obama may not be going to great lengths to voluntarily impose constraints on existing executive authority, but I have not seen any evidence that he has embraced Cheneyism, i.e., that his administration is using highly dubious legal claims to expand executive power. To me, that is a fundamental difference. It is the difference between acting legally and illegally.

By all means, let's keep the pressure on Obama to do the right thing and support better policies, but in doing so, let's not lose sight of the fact that the primary criticism of the Bush administration was not that its terrorism policies were bad (though they were), but that they were illegal. Cheneyism, at its core, has little to do with policy and everything to do with process. It is exemplified by contempt for the rule of law and a willingness to disregard even clear legal constraints on executive power. So far at least, I have not seen evidence of that mentality in the Obama administration's approach to terrorism policy.

UPDATE: In the comments below, Glenn Greenwald writes:

A.L. - You're right that the Obama DOJ has not asserted Article II powers to violate the law. I said exactly that when writing about Obama's adoption of the Bush theory on indefinite detention 2 weeks ago: "It's true that the Obama administration, to its credit, is no longer relying on the theory that the President has 'inherent authority' to detain Terrorism suspects without charges, but that makes no practical difference since they claim the same exact power based on the AUMF."That's not insignificant. But it's not nearly as significant as you suggest, for three reasons:

(1) the Obama DOJ hasn't repudiated that position and can thus adopt it if they lose on their statutory claims;

(2) the effect on policy is zero -- the second-term of Bush/Cheney was marked by Congressional approval for most of the most radical policies (warrantless eavesdropping, denial of habeas corpus, military commissions). So while the legal theories have changed - and that's important to lawyers - the policies themselves haven't.

(3) You're way overstating the importance of process. Yes, claims of presidential omnipotence matters -- but so does the power to lock people up without trials, get lawsuits dismissed based on secrecy assertions, setting up legal black holes, rendering people to torturing countries with no due process, remaining opaque in national security areas, etc.

The policies themselves were every bit as much defining attributes of Bush/Cheney radicalism as the underlying legal claims. The fact that Obama found better legal arguments to justify the same policies is nice, but it's not much help to those caught up in -- victimized by -- all of that, and it's a huge stretch to say that the same exact policies in Obama's hands are fundamentally different all because the legal theories asserted by his DOJ are (at least for now) different.

I agree with virtually all of this, but as I responded in the comments, I think Glenn and I are, to some extent, talking past each other here. The point I was trying to make is more about the framing of the current debate than the substance of it.

My worry is that equating Obama with Bush/Cheney obscures the most troubling aspect of Cheneyism: its embrace of illegality. What we're having now is a policy debate (and a profoundly important one). But the debate we were having a few years ago was, at least in large part, a debate about the primacy of the rule of law. And I don't want people to come away with the impression that these are the same debates. They're not.

And it's not just because the DOJ's legal theories have changed. It's because the law itself has changed. What was once illegal is now legal. So what we're now debating are proposals to change or amend existing law to make it better. We're working within the democratic framework to try to effect policy change, which is how things are supposed to work. Three years ago we were debating whether the law even had to be followed.
Digg!

31 Comments:

Anonymous Glenn Greenwald said...

A.L. - You're right that the Obama DOJ has not asserted Article II powers to violate the law. I said exactly that when writing about Obama's adoption of the Bush theory on indefinite detention 2 weeks ago: "It's true that the Obama administration, to its credit, is no longer relying on the theory that the President has 'inherent authority' to detain Terrorism suspects without charges, but that makes no practical difference since they claim the same exact power based on the AUMF."

That's not insignificant. But it's not nearly as significant as you suggest, for three reasons:

(1) the Obama DOJ hasn't repudiated that position and can thus adopt it if they lose on their statutory claims;

(2) the effect on policy is zero -- the second-term of Bush/Cheney was marked by Congressional approval for most of the most radical policies (warrantless eavesdropping, denial of habeas corpus, military commissions). So while the legal theories have changed - and that's important to lawyers - the policies themselves haven't.

(3) You're way overstating the importance of process. Yes, claims of presidential omnipotence matters -- but so does the power to lock people up without trials, get lawsuits dismissed based on secrecy assertions, setting up legal black holes, rendering people to torturing countries with no due process, remaining opaque in national security areas, etc.

The policies themselves were every bit as much defining attributes of Bush/Cheney radicalism as the underlying legal claims. The fact that Obama found better legal arguments to justify the same policies is nice, but it's not much help to those caught up in -- victimized by -- all of that, and it's a huge stretch to say that the same exact policies in Obama's hands are fundamentally different all because the legal theories asserted by his DOJ are (at least for now) different.

2:02 PM  
Blogger A.L. said...

Glenn, I agree with everything you're saying. I guess my point is more about framing the debate. I just worry that equating Obama with Bush/Cheney obscures the most troubling aspect of Cheneyism: its embrace of illegality.

What we're having now is a policy debate (and a profoundly important one). But the debate we were having a few years ago was primarily a debate about the primacy of the rule of law. And I don't want people to come away with the impression that these are the same debates. They're not.

2:14 PM  
Anonymous Glenn Greenwald said...

A.L. - As you say, we're mostly in agreement, but still emphasizing different points.

It's not entirely true that we're now having policy debates in Congress over how to make things better under Obama (he just refused to go to Congress to write a preventive detention scheme after promising he would, and is doing the same at Bagram, opting instead to rely on an implied AUMF grant of that power with no standards of any kind, just as Bush/Cheney did). And there are still rule of law issues: the failure to comply with the Convention Against Torture, violations of the Constitution from indefinite detention, etc.

It's also not entirely true that Bush/Cheney operated outside of the system of government we have -- they were, after all, checked several times by courts and abided by those rulings, which is what led them to go to Congress and obtain statutory authorization and give detainees habeas rulings (once they lost their broader inherent power claims).

When you say: "What was once illegal is now legal" -- that's true, but it became true under Bush, not Obaam. So even there, the difference -- while substantial -- isn't as fundamaental as you suggest.

I agree with you completely that the starting point for Bush/Cheney radicalism was lawlessness. I even wrote a book about that. And one can't say that about Obama really. So I acknowledge your point there, and it's important.

But that's because they're taking the Jack Goldsmith approach, which -- as Goldsmith says -- was the Bush Second term approach: they're making Bush/Cheney Terrorism policies stronger by grounding them in claims of Congressional authorization and by making them bipartisan. In the sense you emphasize, that's better, since it doesn't rely on lawbreaking. In another sense, though, it's as bad or worse, as it institutionalizes the very policies (if not the underlying theory) that made Bush/Cheney so awful.

We agree that the lawlessness issue is a difference, but I think we disagree on how big. Either way,the policies themselves -- which are an important part of the approach to terrorism no matter how you slice it -- are quite similar.

3:06 PM  
Blogger mls said...

When Greenwald says that "the Obama DOJ has not asserted Article II powers to violate the law," I assume he means in the context of detention policy. In other contexts, the Obama administration has asserted authority to disregard statutes that (it claims) impinge upon Article II. For example, Obama has issued signing statements that assert his authority to disregard congressional instructions on policies that should be advanced before the IMF and World Bank, whistleblower protections and putting US troops under UN command.

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think my head just exploded. damn legalese...isnt it possible for us non-legalistic blue collars to just say that bush/cheney was wrong and obama is wrong for not returning to the framer's intent?

5:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with Glenn here. It is nice that Obama dresses up his policies a bit nicer than Bush, but as long as they are the same policies, it doesn't matter. All this legal stuff is just a thought experiment that diverts from the actual issue at hand.

7:08 PM  
Anonymous Eclectic Radical said...

I think that 'the embrace of illegality' (while a very strong and technically accurate statement) does not quite hit the nail on the head. The core problem with the Bush administration was the idea that the President IS the law and is above all other law. This takes every form of libertarianism ever devised, puts it in a drawer and closes the drawer. It also fundamentally undermines strict constructionist conservatism. Federalism is totally thrown out the window.

The views of the Bush Administration on presidential powers, executive privilege, and executive immunity were fundamentally dictatorial. Cheney communicated a modified version of the divine right of kings to apply to the American president.

That's actually a lot more dangerous than just embracing illegality if you wrap your mind around the concept.

President Obama is grappling, legitimately, with a mess of issues the so-called 'Global War on Terror' has left on the desk. Do I think he is making the right decision in every case? No. Do I think it's important to continue pressure for the repeal of the Patriot Act and other un-American laws? Yes.

But we're no longer facing a presidential assault on core constitutional and philosophical concepts of American freedom. That's a far bigger change than just process.

2:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A.L, I'll defer to you and Glenn on questions of legality, but isn't that really beside the point?Just because a thing is legal does not mean it should be done. The larger question of justice and good old fashioned right and wrong should come into play in a civilized society. I don't think we elect presidents with the idea that we want him to act like a lawyer and split hairs between what's legal and not. All this president has to do is say "You know, that's not right, it's not just, or moral. We won't do that any more". I understand there are all kinds of political considerations involved, but sooner or later someone has to step up and stop this if our democracy (!) is going to survive at all. That is the difference between a leader and a political hack.

5:53 AM  
Blogger Philip H. said...

My worry is that equating Obama with Bush/Cheney obscures the most troubling aspect of Cheneyism: its embrace of illegality. What we're having now is a policy debate (and a profoundly important one). But the debate we were having a few years ago was, at least in large part, a debate about the primacy of the rule of law. And I don't want people to come away with the impression that these are the same debates. They're not.

And it's not just because the DOJ's legal theories have changed. It's because the law itself has changed. What was once illegal is now legal. So what we're now debating are proposals to change or amend existing law to make it better. We're working within the democratic framework to try to effect policy change, which is how things are supposed to work. Three years ago we were debating whether the law even had to be followed.


A.L.,
I have to agree with Anonymous @5:53AM. The objections for many of us, while grounded in law (See all my writing here and here, were equally about right and wrong as much as they were legel and illegal. The moral wrongness of trhe Bush/Cheney doctrine is what drove us, and it is why we are so disappointed in the Obama path.

Dealing with this from a moral/ethical basis is a far better basis to attack Cheneyism from, since, as you noted, the law has been changed by a bunch of sychophants from both sides of the aisle. Thus, for many of us on the Left Side of the Aisle, the fact that Mr. Obama does these things, even if he has a legal leg to stand on, makes them no less wrong, and no less deserving of derision.

You should know better, and after reading your blogging for a while, I expect better.

7:01 AM  
Blogger mls said...

ER- do you have a cite or an example where the Bush Administration declared that the President is the law or is above the law?

Looking at it objectively, the legal position of the Bush Administration was that the President has certain inherent Article II powers that Congress cannot constitutionally restrict. One may agree or disagree with this proposition, but it is no different from other administrations, including Obama’s, in that respect.

What was unique about the Bush Administration was that it either did not think about or did not care about the likely reaction of the other branches to its assertions of particular Article II powers. But since it never disputed the ultimate powers of the other branches to check its assertions of power (ie, through judicial review or impeachment), it is questionable how this makes the President “above the law” (at least in any sense that would not equally apply to Obama or Clinton). And, as Greenwald notes, the Bush Administration abided by adverse Supreme Court rulings when they were rendered. Pretty weak stuff for a President who would claim to be above the law.

7:06 AM  
Blogger William Timberman said...

A.L. is undoubtedly right about the law, but Glenn is right about the politics, and it hardly takes a legal genius to see that the law has proven to be a weak reed to rely on for a defense against the consequences of the politics.

For one thing, A.L.'s assertion that case law now supports the insupportable, while true, is very precisely what is meant by power interfering with the rule of law. The fact that the unconstitutional atrocities which so horrify us are now embedded in the law itself, and that it only took eight years of criminal conduct to embed them there, should be cause, it seems to me, for something close to panic on the part of lawyers. Certainly it shouldn't be cited as a reason to be complacent, or as a defense of the majesty of the law itself.

It must be difficult for lawyers to concede that the law is exactly what Mr. Bumble said it was, at least to laymen, but that concession is absolutely necessary if we're to escape the trap which the Bush Administration sprang on us eight years ago.

9:38 AM  
Blogger William Timberman said...

I should add, for clarification: If the law itself becomes an instrument of oppression, and lawyers are seen to lack the power to stop it from becoming one, or counsel that since there is no redress within the law, there is no redress at all, then lawyers have already lost their privileged position in the debate.

For a brief on how this works, see the Declaration of Independence.

9:48 AM  
Blogger Hans B said...

Fascinating discussion even for a concerned foreigner. I agree with both Glenn and AL, actually. AL's riposte that the discussion today is about what the law should be, while three years ago it was about whether the law mattered at all, is true, but let's not lose sight of the difference between Republicans and Democrats here. Nothing guarantees that the next Republican president will not resuscitate the notion that he is above the law - to the deferential applause of Democratic lawmakers. And by that time the departing pointg - the law - will have moved so much further to the right.

In short, it is true that things are better than they were; but it is also true that little is being done to ensure that they can't get worse again - way, way worse.

6:33 PM  
Blogger C2H50H said...

I don't know how much belief to invest in the proposition that Obama is obeying the law. It was years before we learned how thoroughly Bush was breaking the law, even assuming we know now, and he wasn't even competent.

Also, I don't have any confidence that, given a provocation, some future president, or even Obama tomorrow, will find willing lawyers somewhere in the DoJ, perhaps even in the OLC, who will "re-interpret" the constitution and laws to make whatever inroads into what remains of our civil liberties that president wishes, shortly followed, if history is a guide, by legalization of that interpretation by a servile Congress.

7:23 PM  
Blogger Jotman said...

.... to my knowledge it has not adopted any policies that lack a defensible legal foundation.

AL, I'm curious to know the president's "defensible legal position" not to comply with the Conventions Against Torture.

Would you say it's not an actual "policy," but more a matter of deciding to look forward, not backward?

11:32 PM  
Anonymous ArtyTheAquaBoy said...

My concern is what Mr. Greenwald aptly described as institutionalizing policies that are fundamentally unjust. I believe that many progressives are upset at the Obama administration (rightly so, in my opinion) for exercising these legal "advances" from the Bush administration, thereby presenting active approval of the policies themselves. Perhaps I developed unrealistic expectations from Pres Obama's campaign, but I expected a step back from expanded executive power, not the embrace of it (largely in the same effective form as exercised by the previous admionistration).

10:46 AM  
Blogger Jayhawk said...

Obama said very plainly "I will restore the constitution." Instead of doing that, he has utilized and defended the unconstituional laws that the Bush Administration got passed to legalize their unlawful behavior.

11:20 AM  
Blogger Peter said...

And to expand on my comment at 10:46, I think Jayhawk strikes the heart of current disappointment with the Obama administration. His campaign platform was hope and change; this cultivated an expectation for change not just in process, but change in effect. It is difficult to separate inspiration and effect, whatever process is used. Using legal means to achieve indefinite incarceration and rendition still speaks of an administration inspired by a disregard for civil liberties and international convention. This created a sequence of expectation, realization, and disappointment in progressives moved by his campaign.

12:47 PM  
Blogger Enlightened Layperson said...

I believe AL himself had a post saying something similar when Jack Goldsmith came out with his book. Goldsmith argued that Bush weakened the presidency because the Supreme Court ruled that the President has to obey the law. AL replied that actually, Bush strengthened the Presidency by showing that if the President disobeys the law, eventually Congress will endorse his actions.

And guess what. After all we worked, first to hand Congress to the Democrats and now to get Obama elected, they are doing all they can to institutionalize Bush's worst policies. What options do we have other than despair?

12:50 PM  
Blogger Enlightened Layperson said...

Actually, I see one place we may hope. Convince the right wingers that it isn't just Scary Brown People who may be targets of anti-terrorism policies. That crazy Obama Administration might target all-American Klansmen or something. Maybe they will start reigning in the President if they think he's so dangerous as they claim.

12:52 PM  
Blogger Philip H. said...

And guess what. After all we worked, first to hand Congress to the Democrats and now to get Obama elected, they are doing all they can to institutionalize Bush's worst policies. What options do we have other than despair?

http://accountabilitynowpac.com/.

1:10 PM  
Anonymous KM said...



I both agree and disagree with parts of AL’s and parts of Glenn’s arguments. Here's my very long and probably rambling/verbose attempt to sort out for myself exactly where I agree and disagree, because I think the matter is an important one.

I don't at all object to preserving a strong distinction between Obama's approach (in the broadest possible sense of that word) and Cheney's on issues of civil liberties (for example). I think it is actually very dangerous to repeatedly compare this administration to its predecessor (even on specific issues).

For one thing, such comparisons diminish the historical uniqueness and pure radicalness of the latter -- and such diminution IMO has profound negative consequences, particularly in light of the fact that — some acute progressive bloggers aside — almost no one in American political discourse has yet even grasped exactly how unprecedented, how unique, how dangerous and how profoundly radical and extremist the Bush administration was, and that such realisation is absolutely vital to any hope of even beginning to rectify the vast legacy of those 8 years. To some extent, claims that the two approaches are fundamentally the same, even on these narrow issues, unintentionally contribute to the dangerous process of normalising the shocking, in-your-face transgressions and taboo-shattering actions and policies that the Bush administration engaged in, and got away with, time and again. Thus the Bush admin and its policies get portrayed, for instance, as part of a broader narrative of a postwar trend in the consolidation of executive power, or but the most vivid recent example of the universal tendency of those in power to seek to extend that power. Anybody in the same position would do the same thing, and all that. Nonsense. It is precisely this kind of dangerous normalising effect that caused me to have a somewhat different reaction to Garry Will's recent article from that of Glenn, despite agreeing with many of his specific points about it.

For another thing, such comparisons elide fundamental distinctions and differences between the causes, reasons/motives, strategies, intended scale, manner of execution, etc. of the two approaches. In this respect, such comparisons are in fact (again, unintentionally) rather similar to the absurd and revolting claim made by Bush admin apologists that the fact that so many Democratic members of congress voted for and publicly supported the Iraq war makes them just as responsible for it as, say, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith or Dick Cheney. As reprehensible and dangerous as their conduct in these questions has been, the fact, for instance, that the Obama admin has completely different motives in upholding the sickening Cheney policies -- that they do it almost exclusively in order to protect and shield Cheney and co. themselves, and to prevent the kind of mass legal and political accounting that would otherwise be far more likely to occur, makes a world of difference to how we should understand the status, purposes, nature and effects of the two administrations' respective approaches.

There are all kinds of other reasons why I dislike the identification of Obama's approach with that of the Bush admin -- e.g. the rather mundane one that it superficially seems to legitimise the Republicans' crowing that Obama's actions demonstrate the good sense and justifiability of the Bush admin's policies.

Thus I find myself as usual agreeing wholeheartedly with virtually all of Glenn's arguments and conclusions while remaining uncomfortable about the way in which he frames them: he often (rightly) attacks Obama admin policies by (wrongly, IMO) portraying them as essentially identical to those of its predecessor. It's simply unnecessary, and anyway misleading, to frame Obama's policies in this fashion in order to (vehemently) criticise them.

1:32 PM  
Anonymous KM said...

Long comment, part 2:

My reasons for discomfort however go beyond AL's focus on the embrace of illegality, which is important but by far not the only critical distinctive aspect of Cheney's approach that separate it from Obama's ostensibly similar one. (Or rather, one needs to provide much more context around that embrace of illegality before the overall extremism, dangerousness, massive scope and powerful effects of Bush admin policies and actions can be fully appreciated. To isolate illegality in this way as "the" key distinction separating the two approaches is problematic, because this framing vastly underplays Cheneyism's uniqueness, given that it has hundreds of other crucial and intimately intertwined aspects which make its embrace of illegality far more radical and dangerous and consequential even than such a portrayal would suggest. (And one shouldn't forget that in trying to preserve Bush admin policies and arguments, the Obama admin has been forced in certain local cases to at least toy with the small-scale embrace of illegality (or at least e.g. engage in open defiance of court orders) as well.)

At the same time as I think that it vastly underplays the difference between the approaches of the two administrations, I also -- and for some of the same reasons -- doubt that the clear distinction between legality and illegality that AL is trying to make can support anything like the weight that AL seems to want to put on it. There is a heck of a lot more to Cheneyism than just contempt for the rule of law, however significant that undoubtedly is. The invocation for example of an outrageously loose, indiscriminate and false interpretation of the State Secrets privilege, for the sole purpose of covering up (gross) executive malfeasance (by the previous admin, in this case), is pretty damn close to many elements of the spirit of Cheneyism. It can’t help but be — key elements of that spirit are built into the nature of the “policy” or legal argument itself. I think you just can’t argue, for example, that the Obama admin’s various responses — in court and in diplomacy — to the Binyam Mohammed case don’t reek of the sort of high-handed, taunting, dismissive, in-your-face obnoxiousness typical of the style of the Bush admin in such matters. Again, that is not to say that the two approaches should be judged identical — they aren’t, by any means — but there are certain inevitable similarities in style that accompany the virtual identity in content (about which more below). The fact that Obama’s positions re: State Secrets rests on a series of (absurd) judgements by federal courts over the past few years that might provide greater legal standing for such a position today makes little difference on this score, and a formal (though still genuine) general adherence to legality certainly doesn't, in my opinion at least, make Obama's efforts to defend and uphold Bush-era policies that much less repugnant (i.e. than they would have been if they had had as little legal support as Bush’s policies initially had).

Does the Obama admin “channel Cheney” on these issues? Of course; the fact that it usually doesn’t flagrantly flout existing law doesn’t alter this. Does the increased attention to legality nevertheless make the Obama approach far less dangerous and reprehensible than Bush/Cheney’s? Yes, obviously. Is this increased attention to legality the only way that the Obama approach is substantially less dangerous, consequential and reprehensible than B/C’s? No, not by far; the differences are multiple, critical, massive and systematic. Does this mean that the Obama approach isn’t so very dangerous, consequential or reprehensible after all? No, not in any sense: it’s all three of those and more.

1:36 PM  
Blogger A.L. said...

This is a truly excellent collection of comments and I wish I had time right now to respond them all. Sadly, I do not.

In the second that I have, though, I want to try to re-emphasize one point. There is a HUGE difference between the Bush/Cheney policies of 2002/2003 and the Bush Cheney policies of 2008. By the end of the administration, the Bush administration had abandoned many of its most extreme policies. Detainies had habeas rights and access to lawyers. Torture had stopped. Wiretapping was taking place within the FISA framework (albeit a watered-down one). It is true that Obama has continued a lot of the policies from 2008, but these policies (though objectionable in many ways) are nowhere near as extreme as the ones from the first Bush few years of the Bush administration. Obama has NOT embraced those policies.

And Obama has done some important things. He unequivocally rejected torture. He indicted Al-Marri (the one person picked up within the U.S. that was still being held as an enemy combatant). He is attempting to close Guantanamo (with no help from feckless members of Congress). He has made a clear committment to treat terrorism (at least going forward) as a law enforcement issue. He released the Bush OLC memos and appointed excellent personnel to take over at the OLC and the DOJ.

Though there is still a ton of room to improve, things are MUCH better now than they were as little as 3 years ago. That is due in part to Obama and in part to the Supreme Court, but it is still significant. The bottomline is that our terrorism policies have vastly improved.

And that's something that I think get's lost in the hyperbole when Obama's policies are compared to Cheney's. We no longer have a constitutional crisis. We no longer have an administration claiming authority it clearly does not have. Now we just have bad policy (and not nearly as bad as it used to be).

On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being awful and 10 being ideal, we are now at a 5 or 6. In 2003 we were at a 1 or 2. In 2008 (the last year of Bush) we were at a 3 or 4. That's improvement. We have a long way to go, but I think many people are vastly understating the progress that has been made.

4:28 PM  
Anonymous SteveAR said...

Now I'm happy to rain on your parade.

Greenwald has made it a point over the years to call the fight against Al Qaeda and Islamist terrorism fear-mongering, barely recognizing there is a war on. People can deny it, but it is the truth. A.L. does something similar in his previous comment:

He has made a clear committment to treat terrorism (at least going forward) as a law enforcement issue.

Never mind that it was treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue that led to the U.S. from being able to stop the 9/11 terrorist attacks. I hate to break it to all you leftists, but knocking down two 110-story buildings and attacking the U.S. capital city, all with highjacked airliners, isn't the equivalent of simple criminal acts like jaywalking, speeding, and shoplifting. It's an act of war. Even the worst dimbulbs on the Supreme Court (Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer, Souter, and Kennedy) recognize this, although they aren't sure when the war actually started (here's a clue: it was several years before 9/11).

The money quote from A.L.:

We no longer have a constitutional crisis.

Here's a newsflash: there never was a constitutional crisis. Checks and balances occurred all throughout those eight years, but you'll never hear the leftists say that because it kills the narrative.

If anyone wants to see fear-mongering, all one has to do is read the agitprop from the leftists, including A.L.

7:33 AM  
Blogger C2H50H said...

SteveAR,

The first part of your comment is so poorly expressed that it is impossible to tell what you mean.

For the second part, the failure to stop AQ prior to 9/11/2001 was not due to a failure of law enforcement techniques, but rather to a failure to competently apply law enforcement techniques. We see this clearly in the recent cases where AQ sympathizers or affiliates were caught before they could do damage.

"Agitprop" means "propaganda", which really doesn't fit A.L.'s argument from law and fact.

As for checks and balances occurring during the Cheney administration, this is just your usual up-is-down argument by assertion. I doubt many of us here are going to agree that Cheney was "checked or balanced." Certainly not by Congress, and, since the Bush administration used every means, legal, procedural, and even illegal (remember the destroyed torture tapes?), to avoid having the courts weigh in on their actions, not in the courts -- except where they got slapped down hard.

5:35 PM  
Anonymous SteveAR said...

C2H50H:

The first part of your comment is so poorly expressed that it is impossible to tell what you mean.

You mean what I said about Greenwald? I expressed it just fine. It's absolutely true that he calls any calls to fight terrorism as fear-mongering and he does barely acknowledge there is a war on.

For the second part, the failure to stop AQ prior to 9/11/2001 was not due to a failure of law enforcement techniques, but rather to a failure to competently apply law enforcement techniques. We see this clearly in the recent cases where AQ sympathizers or affiliates were caught before they could do damage.

Apples and oranges. The techniques that the Obama administration is legally able to employ now weren't in place before 9/11; there would have been phony cries from the left about their notion of the "rule of law" had Bush, and maybe even Clinton, used such techniques to stop the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Don't even attempt to deny it; look how leftists have been whining about the PATRIOT Act since 2001.

One other thing. Obama has thousands less terrorists to fight in the world thanks to the use of the military to kill them. Forget using the argument that killing terrorists creates more terrorists because there is no rational basis to that argument.

"Agitprop" means "propaganda", which really doesn't fit A.L.'s argument from law and fact.

A.L.'s stating that there was a constitutional crisis has no basis in either law or fact. My use of the word "agitprop" was deliberate; it means more than just propaganda since it also includes a certain ideological connotation to it, one employed by A.L., and frequently by you.

As for checks and balances occurring during the Cheney administration, this is just your usual up-is-down argument by assertion. I doubt many of us here are going to agree that Cheney was "checked or balanced."

You're funny, and so is your agitprop. I agree you and those like you aren't going to agree that there were checks or balances on "Cheneyism" since it wrecks your assertion. But the fact of the matter is there were plenty of checks and balances; your own arguments do you in:

Certainly not by Congress,...

Sure it was. It just passed laws you didn't like. There were hearings, they just didn't include any to forcibly remove Bush and Cheney from power. Not even Democrats over the last two years of the Bush administration would do it. Why? Because there weren't any high crimes or misdemeanors committed by the Bush administration.

...and, since the Bush administration used every means, legal, procedural, and even illegal (remember the destroyed torture tapes?), to avoid having the courts weigh in on their actions, not in the courts -- except where they got slapped down hard.

Was there any proof that anyone in the White House, even Bush or Cheney, ordered those tapes destroyed? The answer is no. There's been an investigation for two years on this and what does anybody have to show for it? Nothing that says anyone in the White House ordered it. So you can forget that noise and forget using the argument that the Bush administration destroyed those tapes to defend itself.

And what about the rest of your horribly written point? Your argument seems to hinge on two points: the Bush administration shouldn't have used any means at its disposal to defend itself, and that if the courts ruled favorably for the Bush administration, it means there were no checks and balances. That is just ridiculous. The Obama administration is using the same techniques as the Bush administration did in defending itself, especially in the Al-Haramain case. If you don't like it, too bad; that's your problem. And at least A.L. acknowledges that Bush didn't ignore rulings that went against that administration. Checks and balances.

Anyone who says there was a constitutional crisis during the Bush administration is using agitprop and egregiously hyper-partisan fear-mongering.

9:37 AM  
Blogger C2H50H said...

SteveAR,

Thanks for the amusement. Some really great stuff, but especially the last line: "egregiously hyper-partisan fear-mongering."

Too funny.

Oh, and the rest of your comment was funny, too. I don't mean to slight the rest, but that last bit was hilarious.

On one factual matter you are totally wrong, however: in the most recent terrorism cases, there's no real indication that the new surveillance abilities had anything to do with the case. Oh, I'm aware that various right-wing pundits have suggested this, but they, like you, are operating entirely on hot air, not knowledge.

9:50 AM  
Anonymous SteveAR said...

C2H50H:

Glad I gave you a good laugh. If you and I ever meet, you can buy me a shot of tequila and a beer chaser to show your gratitude.

On one factual matter you are totally wrong, however: in the most recent terrorism cases, there's no real indication that the new surveillance abilities had anything to do with the case.

Guess I owe you a drink too since you are also very funny. You provide an opinion that is stated as fact. Very amusing.

10:57 AM  
Blogger C2H50H said...

SteveAR,

What I said was that there isn't any real indication, which is something you can easily disprove, if you have a statement by someone on the record that the enhanced surveillance techniques were involved.

12:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

911 was an inside job

12:06 AM  

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