Why The ACORN "Stings" Really Bother Me
The conservative media has spent the better part of the last few weeks heaping praise upon James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles--the two conservative activists who secretly recorded various ACORN employees and then posted the videos on the website of fellow conservative activist Andrew Breitbart--and treating them as if they are the modern incarnation of Woodward and Bernstein. Even the mainstream media has, to some extent, given positive coverage to their endeavors and indulged in the fantasy that they exposed some sort of significant criminal activity.
I suppose that's to be expected when the storyline is driven by footage of people saying very questionable things. Just play the video and move on. But there's something very problematic about how all this went down. Consider for a moment the premise of these "stings." O'Keefe and Giles, who look like they just walked out of a Young Republicans chapter meeting, walk into various ACORN offices dressed up as a pimp and prostitute (or at least as they imagine such people might look). They then ask a bunch of totally off-the-wall questions to unsuspecting (or in some cases suspecting) low-level ACORN employees and record the responses. As Jack Schafer correctly notes in his otherwise far-too-credulous piece at Slate, this is not a sting; it's the equivalent of a Sasha Baron Cohen sketch.
In a real undercover investigation, you catch people engaged in activity that, based on the circumstances, you can be confident they are inclined to commit on their own volition. In a prostitution sting, for example, an officer poses as a prostitute and arrests those who go out of their way to solicit her. In an undercover drug sting, you pose as a buyer or dealer and arrest those who take the initiative to engage in an illegal transaction with you. In both cases you can be fairly confident that the person you arrested would have attempted to buy sex or drugs from someone else if the police hadn't been there.
But you can't entrap people. You can't present them with unrealistic situations or go out of your way to get someone to do something that they might not otherwise do. You can't, for example, leave a $100 dollar bill on the ground and arrest people who, in a momentary lapse of judgment, take the money.
What O'Keefe and Giles are doing isn't quite entrapment, but it isn't remotely the equivalent of a sting either, unless you assume that ACORN employees are routinely confronted with fake-looking pimp and prostitute duos who come into the office asking for advice on how to set up a prostitution business. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that real pimps and prostitutes don't usually wander into the offices of community services organizations and explicitly ask for help in setting up their illegal businesses. It's a safe bet that none of the employees filmed surreptitiously in these videos have ever encountered a situation like this before. So all these videos really show are people's instant reactions to a situation far removed from their everyday experience and training.
That's why the comparison to Sasha Baron Cohen is so apt. When confronted by very unusual behavior or unusual situations, people have a tendency to be agreeable and to play along. Most people don't like confrontation and will instinctively go to great lengths to avoid it. If you doubt this, go watch Borat or Bruno or any episode of the Ali G Show. It is this same human tendency that serves as the basis for all of Cohen's comedy. He specializes in getting people (often famous people) to say things that they would not normally say.
What you say on the spot, when confronted with an unusual request, is a very poor indicator of your overall judgment. It's just your instant reaction, and it is usually driven, more than anything else, by a desire to avoid an awkward situation or a confrontation. This is especially true when you are confronted with possible criminal activity; many people are understandably reluctant to confront criminals about their criminal activity to their face, especially when you are alone with them. Better to placate them and then figure out what to do after they are they are gone.
The people caught in these videos were not engaged in deliberative activity, they were merely reacting to unusual provocation. The real test of their judgment was not what they said on the fly but what they did afterward, when the filmmakers had left the premises and they finally had a moment to process the encounter. Unfortunately, that moment is not on the tapes. We do know, however, that at least one of the employees captured on the video reported the duo to the police after they left the office (he was fired anyway). In another instance, the two were actually asked to leave and a police report was filed. Others undoubtedly concluded that it was a prank, either during the encounter or after having the chance to think about it for a while, and therefore shrugged it off and took no further action.
During my time as a prosecutor, I had several unusual encounters with witnessess or a defendant's family members, encounters that made me very uncomfortable and to which I typically responded by trying to avoid confrontration and end the conversation as soon as possible. In one instance, a defendant called me up pretending to be a witness. As the conversation went on, it began to dawn on me that I was likely talking to the defendant, not a witness, which is very problematic (not only is it illegal to lie to a prosecutor, it is improper for a prosecutor to speak directly with a defendant who is represented by counsel). Not knowing quite what to do, I played along for a while and tried to end the conversation as quickly as possible. Once I hung up the phone, and had a chance to process what had just happened, I immediatley reported the encounter to my supervisor and we took appropriate action. I honestly don't remember exactly how the phone conversation went, but I'd bet that if it was played back without any context (such as without explaining what I did after the call), it could make me look bad. That's what's so problematic about judging people, much less an entire organization, based on such encounters.
The other point that is not being made, but should be, is that these ACORN workers had absolutely nothing to gain from helping out this pimp and prostitute duo. In a typical sting, the subject of the sting has some plausible motive for committing wrongdoing; they want drugs or sex or money, etc. In a sting directed at an company or organization, the goal is typically to catch employees engaged in illegal behavior that benefits that company or organization (such as bribing public officials or deceiving customers). That's not the case here. No conservative has bothered to even offer a theory as to why it would be in ACORN's interest to assist people in setting up prostitution rings. How would ACORN benefit from such activity? How would these individual employees benefit? What's in it for them?
ACORN employees are trained to help poor people (the vast majority of whom are not criminals) deal with common problems. So, at worst, what you have here are examples of employees who, eager to help whomever comes through the door, offered to help people whom they should not have (and without a promise of anything in return). There's no quid pro quo even alleged. And again, what's captured on film are not final decisions, but instant reactions.
But based on these "stings" a number of employees lost their jobs and an entire community service organization has been vilified to the point where its future as an organization is severely threatened. Everyone should find that troubling, because it could happen to any organization or company.
With disguises and hidden cameras, it's really not hard to get people to say embarrassing things or capture them acting in ways that--when edited and removed from all context--look really bad. It's not as if O'Keefe and Giles have demonstrated some amazing ability to ferret out the truth. Their videos are horribly amateur and their stings ham-handed in execution and conception. Any two schmucks with a camera could do the same thing.
And given the success of this endeavor at tarnishing an entire organization, it's just a matter of time before the very same techniques are applied to different targets. O'Keefe and Giles (and various copycats) are undoubtedly already planning and executing their next "sting."
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
I suppose that's to be expected when the storyline is driven by footage of people saying very questionable things. Just play the video and move on. But there's something very problematic about how all this went down. Consider for a moment the premise of these "stings." O'Keefe and Giles, who look like they just walked out of a Young Republicans chapter meeting, walk into various ACORN offices dressed up as a pimp and prostitute (or at least as they imagine such people might look). They then ask a bunch of totally off-the-wall questions to unsuspecting (or in some cases suspecting) low-level ACORN employees and record the responses. As Jack Schafer correctly notes in his otherwise far-too-credulous piece at Slate, this is not a sting; it's the equivalent of a Sasha Baron Cohen sketch.
In a real undercover investigation, you catch people engaged in activity that, based on the circumstances, you can be confident they are inclined to commit on their own volition. In a prostitution sting, for example, an officer poses as a prostitute and arrests those who go out of their way to solicit her. In an undercover drug sting, you pose as a buyer or dealer and arrest those who take the initiative to engage in an illegal transaction with you. In both cases you can be fairly confident that the person you arrested would have attempted to buy sex or drugs from someone else if the police hadn't been there.
But you can't entrap people. You can't present them with unrealistic situations or go out of your way to get someone to do something that they might not otherwise do. You can't, for example, leave a $100 dollar bill on the ground and arrest people who, in a momentary lapse of judgment, take the money.
What O'Keefe and Giles are doing isn't quite entrapment, but it isn't remotely the equivalent of a sting either, unless you assume that ACORN employees are routinely confronted with fake-looking pimp and prostitute duos who come into the office asking for advice on how to set up a prostitution business. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that real pimps and prostitutes don't usually wander into the offices of community services organizations and explicitly ask for help in setting up their illegal businesses. It's a safe bet that none of the employees filmed surreptitiously in these videos have ever encountered a situation like this before. So all these videos really show are people's instant reactions to a situation far removed from their everyday experience and training.
That's why the comparison to Sasha Baron Cohen is so apt. When confronted by very unusual behavior or unusual situations, people have a tendency to be agreeable and to play along. Most people don't like confrontation and will instinctively go to great lengths to avoid it. If you doubt this, go watch Borat or Bruno or any episode of the Ali G Show. It is this same human tendency that serves as the basis for all of Cohen's comedy. He specializes in getting people (often famous people) to say things that they would not normally say.
What you say on the spot, when confronted with an unusual request, is a very poor indicator of your overall judgment. It's just your instant reaction, and it is usually driven, more than anything else, by a desire to avoid an awkward situation or a confrontation. This is especially true when you are confronted with possible criminal activity; many people are understandably reluctant to confront criminals about their criminal activity to their face, especially when you are alone with them. Better to placate them and then figure out what to do after they are they are gone.
The people caught in these videos were not engaged in deliberative activity, they were merely reacting to unusual provocation. The real test of their judgment was not what they said on the fly but what they did afterward, when the filmmakers had left the premises and they finally had a moment to process the encounter. Unfortunately, that moment is not on the tapes. We do know, however, that at least one of the employees captured on the video reported the duo to the police after they left the office (he was fired anyway). In another instance, the two were actually asked to leave and a police report was filed. Others undoubtedly concluded that it was a prank, either during the encounter or after having the chance to think about it for a while, and therefore shrugged it off and took no further action.
During my time as a prosecutor, I had several unusual encounters with witnessess or a defendant's family members, encounters that made me very uncomfortable and to which I typically responded by trying to avoid confrontration and end the conversation as soon as possible. In one instance, a defendant called me up pretending to be a witness. As the conversation went on, it began to dawn on me that I was likely talking to the defendant, not a witness, which is very problematic (not only is it illegal to lie to a prosecutor, it is improper for a prosecutor to speak directly with a defendant who is represented by counsel). Not knowing quite what to do, I played along for a while and tried to end the conversation as quickly as possible. Once I hung up the phone, and had a chance to process what had just happened, I immediatley reported the encounter to my supervisor and we took appropriate action. I honestly don't remember exactly how the phone conversation went, but I'd bet that if it was played back without any context (such as without explaining what I did after the call), it could make me look bad. That's what's so problematic about judging people, much less an entire organization, based on such encounters.
The other point that is not being made, but should be, is that these ACORN workers had absolutely nothing to gain from helping out this pimp and prostitute duo. In a typical sting, the subject of the sting has some plausible motive for committing wrongdoing; they want drugs or sex or money, etc. In a sting directed at an company or organization, the goal is typically to catch employees engaged in illegal behavior that benefits that company or organization (such as bribing public officials or deceiving customers). That's not the case here. No conservative has bothered to even offer a theory as to why it would be in ACORN's interest to assist people in setting up prostitution rings. How would ACORN benefit from such activity? How would these individual employees benefit? What's in it for them?
ACORN employees are trained to help poor people (the vast majority of whom are not criminals) deal with common problems. So, at worst, what you have here are examples of employees who, eager to help whomever comes through the door, offered to help people whom they should not have (and without a promise of anything in return). There's no quid pro quo even alleged. And again, what's captured on film are not final decisions, but instant reactions.
But based on these "stings" a number of employees lost their jobs and an entire community service organization has been vilified to the point where its future as an organization is severely threatened. Everyone should find that troubling, because it could happen to any organization or company.
With disguises and hidden cameras, it's really not hard to get people to say embarrassing things or capture them acting in ways that--when edited and removed from all context--look really bad. It's not as if O'Keefe and Giles have demonstrated some amazing ability to ferret out the truth. Their videos are horribly amateur and their stings ham-handed in execution and conception. Any two schmucks with a camera could do the same thing.
And given the success of this endeavor at tarnishing an entire organization, it's just a matter of time before the very same techniques are applied to different targets. O'Keefe and Giles (and various copycats) are undoubtedly already planning and executing their next "sting."
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.



42 Comments:
The Congressional Research Service says the GOP's Defund ACORN Act is probably unconstitutional.
I agree completely with your analysis, but I'm surprised you mentioned Shafer's piece without saying what his takeaway was. Suffice it to say, he felt significantly more positive about the video's methods and what they "ferreted out" than you (and me). He seemed to feel as if the filmmakers were able to find some horrible truth about what ACORN workers think they were to do, and buttressed that point with the IRS's (et al.) decision to stop doing business with them ... I was curious to know your thoughts?
AL - regarding the Sasha Baron Cohen analogy, an important distinction is that Cohen's targets are well-aware that they are being filmed. So there is some element of fair notice. The ACORN employees, on the other hand, were surrepticiously filmed (in violation of the law in some cases).
As you point out, a sting is typically secretly carried out but non-provocative.
"Ambush journalism" of the type practiced by Cohen and other (more-serious) journalists is provocative, but carried out in an open and notorious manner.
O'Keefe and Giles combine the underhanded elements of both approaches by secretly recording reactions to their own highly provocative behavior.
What O'Keefe and Giles are doing isn't quite entrapment, but it isn't remotely the equivalent of a sting either, unless you assume that ACORN employees are routinely confronted with fake-looking pimp and prostitute duos who come into the office asking for advice on how to set up a prostitution business.
I think this is the crux of it- this is precisely what the ACORN attackers think. Poor people are criminals, therefore people that help poor people will aid and abet criminals. Video? QED.
You can't, for example, leave a $100 dollar bill on the ground and arrest people who, in a momentary lapse of judgment, take the money.
Police can leave, and have left, "bait" cars and arrest people who, in either a momentary lapse of judgment or because they are crooks, take the cars.
And given the success of this endeavor at tarnishing an entire organization, it's just a matter of time before the very same techniques are applied to different targets...
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
It's not like this hasn't happened before having been done by the mainstream media on more than one occasion.
In 2008, ABC News put out a story titled called "Witness to Discrimination: What Would You Do? Bystanders Turn Away When Muslim Actor Hired By 'Primetime' Encounters Hostility" trying to gauge discrimination in Waco, Texas. ABC planted a female customer wearing a hijab and a clerk who was to server her at some bakery.
Two years before that, NBC was going to plant what they called "Muslim-looking men" to a NASCAR race in Martinsville, Virginia, to find out how racist NASCAR fans are.
Searching the blog's archives, I saw nothing in the blog related to these operations by ABC and NBC, despite the fact that these schmuck networks were doing the same as O'Keefe and Giles. How are what O'Keefe and Giles did different that what the schmucks at ABC and NBC did?
Steve,
I don't approve of this kind of nonsense any more when it is done by a news organization.
But it's probably worth noting that no one trashed NASCAR or passed legislation designed to punish it.
My problem withthe whole sordid affair - how many times did these two go into ACRON offices and get shut down? We have what, 6 or 7 of hundreds of ACRON employees who flub it? And on that basis we have to destroy a whole organization?
That would sort of be like taking down the entire CIA because some of its operatives violated the Bush Administration's "rules" on "torture." One wonders who is overreacting here!
AL,
What I find particularly interesting about this story, an angle that I haven't previously heard mentioned, is that it's yet another case of wingnut-welfare. Hannah Giles, the fake prostitute, isn't some random schoolgirl suddenly consumed by patriotism and fear of Brack Obama's dastardly communist ways, she's the daughter of Doug Giles, a third-rate conservative shock-jock who writes columns for TownHall and other such sites (http://townhall.com/columnists/HannahGiles)
While her father's identity doesn't impact directly on the accuracy/inaccuracy of her ACORN videos, it's certainly something that should be mentioned in order to provide a clearer context. It's be like if a decade or two from now, Rachel Limbaugh "discovered corruption" in Democratic party finances. Might the accusations be true? Sure, but they're coming from a horribly biased source. Just worth a thought.
A.L.:
I don't approve of this kind of nonsense any more when it is done by a news organization.
You said in the post:
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
The press already uses those techniques! They win awards for these kinds of things! How are what O'Keefe and Giles did any different that what the press already does?
But it's probably worth noting that no one trashed NASCAR or passed legislation designed to punish it.
That's probably because NBC "news" stories didn't find (or manufacture) racism at NASCAR events they were at. If they had, I have no doubt those government agencies that sponsor cars would have pulled their sponsorship money. There would have been a call for private companies sponsoring cars to pull their money too. Whether it would have happened, I can't say. But there would have been a big push for companies to do so.
As far as passing legislation to punish NASCAR, Congress already likes to get involved in various activities involving sports. What makes you think they wouldn't get involved with NASCAR if some racism was found by NBC?
SteveAR,
Because Racism at NASCAR doesn't threaten Conservative politicians viscerally the way organizing poor folks and getting them to vote does.
How are what O'Keefe and Giles did different that what the schmucks at ABC and NBC did?
So you would agree that O'Keefe and Giles are "schmucks"?
I have no doubt those government agencies that sponsor cars would have pulled their sponsorship money.
I'm not that familiar with NASCAR so maybe you could tell us what government agencies have been sponsoring cars.
Whether it would have happened, I can't say.
So what is your argument? That something may have happened to NASCAR if it was revealed they were racist using the same methods employed by O'Keefe and Giles? And that would be wrong? Isn't that what A.L. just wrote?
Anonymous:
I'm not that familiar with NASCAR so maybe you could tell us what government agencies have been sponsoring cars.
I know the Army does, but I believe one or more of the other branches are sponsors as well.
So what is your argument? That something may have happened to NASCAR if it was revealed they were racist using the same methods employed by O'Keefe and Giles? And that would be wrong? Isn't that what A.L. just wrote?
I didn't say that at all. What I'm wondering is how can anyone say what O'Keefe and Giles did is any different that what the press already does, or even be surprised by it.
Philip H:
Because Racism at NASCAR doesn't threaten Conservative politicians viscerally the way organizing poor folks and getting them to vote does.
What I gather by your statement is that you don't know anything about NASCAR or where they race.
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
Planned Parenthood has been the target of exactly this kind of "investigation" for years. [does anybody else remember when these tactics used to be called "ratfucking"?] Google Lila Rose, to give just one example. There have been attempts to defund PP on the basis of tapes made by Rose and others. PP has a more effective press machine than ACORN, apparently, because thus far these efforts have gone nowhere, fortunately.
I do think that Fox News ought to point out that one of the ACORN people featured in the sting videos actually called the police, and was only playing along in a foolish attempt to "sting the stingers". I do think that employee probably deserved to be fired for playing along, it's akin to a Best Buy employee chasing a burglar into the parking lot.
I remain confused as to why anyone was fooled by the "pimp and prostitute" costumes. That whole getup looked like they watched a DVD of Superfly as research. Additionally, someone at ACORN should have asked themselves "is this pimp's actions really plausible?"
As for "defunding" ACORN, considering no actual crime was committed (and in the case of the employee who called the cops, no pretend crime was committed either), could Congress defund them without the bill in question being a Bill of Attainder?
If you WANT to be dumber then waste your time engaging with SteveAR.
"What I find particularly interesting about this story, an angle that I haven't previously heard mentioned, is that it's yet another case of wingnut-welfare. Hannah Giles, the fake prostitute, isn't some random schoolgirl suddenly consumed by patriotism and fear of Brack Obama's dastardly communist ways, she's the daughter of Doug Giles, a third-rate conservative shock-jock who writes columns for TownHall and other such sites (http://townhall.com/columnists/HannahGiles"
Why do you call her "the fake prostitute"
shouldnt it be "the self proclaimed prostitute"
SteveAR - The idea that you'd suggest that non-criminals would steal a car in a momentary lapse of judgment suggests that you're a ridiculous person.
Secondly, it should be noted that your link to the NASCAR article has NASCAR attacking NBC for the treatment, referring to it as an embarrassing stunt. Should we assume from your comparison here that you also think ACORN should be slamming the two who punked them? If not, that link seems to entirely undermine your case.
I didn't say that at all. What I'm wondering is how can anyone say what O'Keefe and Giles did is any different that what the press already does, or even be surprised by it.
Let me try once more. Here is the paragraph A.L. wrote that was the basis for your criticism:
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
You'll note that there isn't anything about being surprised. I've used a bolder font to emphasize the key point that you seem to keep missing. Case in point, when you wrote the following:
The press already uses those techniques!
When you compare the 2 statements, they are saying the SAME THING. So again, what the hell is your argument?
If you believe that the "news" is a bunch of "schmucks" for using this technique, then it would logically follow that you feel the same way about the pimp and ho portrayers. And that would mean you are in agreement with A.L. and the rest of us Leftists.
If you believe that the counterfeit pimp and ho were justified in using the technique because the "news schmucks" do it, that would make you a hypocrite.
So tell us, which is it?
Steve,
Not that it should matter, but I've been watching NASCAR since King Richard was driving his second to last car. That's also the era when and where the Bobby and Davey Allison were trading paint the way Matt Kenseth and Kasey Kaine trade it now. That was also the era before restrictor plates and superspeedways - when you could look at a NASCAR car on Sunday and actually see the car in your neighbor's driveway on Monday.
So yes, I know a thing or 700 about NASCAR and where it races. I also know that its fans are overwhelmingly white males, and tend to be more politically conservative and religiously fundamental then fans of other types of auto racing. I also know that racism tends to be more prevalent in white male, conservative, fundmentalist circles.
And since you missed the obvious connection, I'll make it for you - if NBC, ABC and CBS are wrong, as you assert, for their attempts to, among others - "entrap" NASCAR audiences into acting racist, then Fox News was wrong to take this independently produced, context free attempt to entrap ACORN staff.
What you do with that information, is, of course, your call.
Doctor Biobrain:
SteveAR - The idea that you'd suggest that non-criminals would steal a car in a momentary lapse of judgment suggests that you're a ridiculous person.
A thief isn't a thief until the thief steals something for the first time.
Should we assume from your comparison here that you also think ACORN should be slamming the two who punked them?
ACORN has been slamming them. ACORN also filed a lawsuit. From what I can tell, the suit will suffer a quick death. I don't know if NASCAR filed suit against NBC, but I doubt it went anywhere if it did.
Here's what you, Anonymous, Philip H., and especially A.L. aren't getting. A.L. suggests the regular press should have either ignored or exposed what O'Keefe and Giles did. But nowhere does A.L. mention that the regular press already does the same thing as those two. A.L. won't even say what those two did was entrapment, especially since what they did doesn't fall anywhere within the definition of entrapment. So if the regular press does these same kinds of things already, it suggests to me that A.L. has another, less objective reason for thinking that the O'Keefe and Giles exposé of ACORN was different than exposés by the regular press of other companies, organizations, or anyone else for that matter.
Here's one other thing. Racism, by itself, isn't a crime. It's loathsome, but it isn't a criminal act. Even A.L. knows this. Trying to find racism at a NASCAR event absent a prior racism complaint or some criminal act based on racism at NASCAR events is slimy. Even Philip H.'s assertion that racism would more than likely be prevalent because the majority of NASCAR fans are of a particular persuasion (white, conservative, fundamentalist) is slimy. I would add that Philip's assertion is racist.
On the other hand, ACORN the organization has had criminal problems for awhile, and those problems go all the way to the top with the embezzlement by one of the Rathke brothers and the cover-up of the embezzlement for nearly 10 years. The fraud convictions and the fraud indictments in a dozen states, along with the embezzlement and cover-up, should have triggered the regular press outside of Fox News to look into ACORN's activities; whether the regular press would have done "stings" no one can say. But the press did just about nothing until these videos came out.
A.L. can say all he wants that all these ACORN people were just indulging an outrageously dressed couple with an outrageous story. Obviously, the ACORN people exposed by O'Keefe and Giles didn't commit crimes. But it seems to me to be a pretty dumb thing to do for those ACORN people to continue to listen to O'Keefe's and Giles' story, even showing how ACORN could help them out, if all the ACORN people were doing were indulging O'Keefe and Giles.
No conservative is suggesting that helping the poor, even getting them registered to vote, which ACORN professes is their mission, is a bad thing. But this doesn't absolve ACORN of the continuous wrongdoing of its members, nor sliming those who expose the wrongdoing.
A.L. suggests the regular press should have either ignored or exposed what O'Keefe and Giles did. But nowhere does A.L. mention that the regular press already does the same thing as those two.
Have you already forgotten the segment that A.L. wrote and I quoted above? Here, I'll repost it ONE MORE TIME:
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
I see now that there is something in your cognitive abilities that is preventing you from comprehending the above statement. If you did, you would have to finally answer the question you are steadfastly avoiding. Namely, if the press is slimy for using the technique then isn't Woodpimp and Bernho also every bit as slimy?
But you just can't do it. That's why your post wanders off on NASCAR and your silly notions of racism. Years of FOX viewing and following all your favorite right-wing pundits have dulled your critical thinking. You just take as immutable fact whatever they dish out to you. Yesterday it was ACORN, today it's school kids singing about Obama, tomorrow it will be some other nonsense.
I can only hope that in your efforts to make us liberals see the light, a few synapses may again reconnect and you can join us in the land of reality. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Steve AR writes:
"No conservative is suggesting that helping the poor, even getting them registered to vote, which ACORN professes is their mission, is a bad thing."
No, of course they are not suggesting that. But by definition they believe that more people voting for Democrats is a very bad thing.
'No conservative is suggesting that helping the poor, even getting them registered to vote, which ACORN professes is their mission, is a bad thing. But this doesn't absolve ACORN of the continuous wrongdoing of its members, nor sliming those who expose the wrongdoing.'
Actually, yes they are. Read Malthus. Helping the poor destroys the social order, does not help the poor, and makes us all poor. Or read Ayn Rand or John Calvin: the poor are poor because of their laziness (Rand) or their sinfulness (Calvin) and would be successful if they either had better characters (Rand) or were more virtuous (Calvin.)
Since the conservative appoach toward poverty, across the board, is drawn directly from Calvin, Malthus, and/or Rand...
Yes. I think there are a lot of conservatives who really do believe that actively helping the poor is a bad thing. They just (most of them, R.S. McCain has come really close to it) wouldn't admit it on a blog.
"...could Congress defund them without the bill in question being a Bill of Attainder?"
No, in fact they could not. That's why the bill which defunded them was worded to defund any organization of any type which had in any way cheated or defrauded the government. Unfortunately, that includes virtaully all government contractors, including Boeing, Northrup, General Dynamics...
And let's not forget the Rush philosophy that the poor are poor because either they're lazy and/or stupid, or they're poor because Liberals (yes, Liberals) are conniving to keep them poor for political advantage.
So liberals keep the rich from being even better off, and they keep the poor from being better off. Not sure where all that money is going that the liberals keep from benefiting the rich and keep from benefiting the poor.
Notice once again that the vast majority of commentary here was not a discussion of A.L.'s post, but of Steve's willful off-topic misdirection.
When will you good people learn to stop feeding the troll?
If Steve ever contibuted to the discussion, or did anything other than spout canned right-wing talking points, I woudn't feel this way.
But, he ignores questions he cannot answer, and changes the subject with impunity.
It stopped being fun a long tme ago.
Jazzbumpa is actually right and I, for one, should really know better. My problem is that I am every bit as combative as any other troll (my blog is even 'affectionately' -- I hope -- linked on one conservative blog as 'my liberal troll')online. So when Steve lies, I can't help but start swinging even though I know what's going to happen.
I even told myself, before I read this very post, that I was going to read the posts and make a comment if I felt one warranted, without reading the comments themselves. And I forgot. Bang, there was Steve being an ass, and there I went swinging again.
A.L. from the post as highlighted from Anonymous (3:28pm):
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
Anonymous (3:28pm):
I see now that there is something in your cognitive abilities that is preventing you from comprehending the above statement. If you did, you would have to finally answer the question you are steadfastly avoiding. Namely, if the press is slimy for using the technique then isn't Woodpimp and Bernho also every bit as slimy?
There is nothing wrong with my cognitive ability. What you are doing is asking the wrong question, and you are directing the wrong question to the wrong person, me. The right question can be derived from a comment by A.L. earlier:
I don't approve of this kind of nonsense any more when it is done by a news organization.
But as can be seen by the statement you and I both pulled from the post, A.L. never even considers that the regular press engages in the same type of "sting" that O'Keefe and Giles pulled off. When confronted with the fact that regular press already does the same kind of "sting", he comes out with a blanket statement condemning these kinds of activities regardless of who does it. Yet, he was compelled, for whatever reason, to indicate how the O'Keefe and Giles activity bothered him, while never indicating in previous posts that this activity when done by the regular press actually did bother him.
So the real question has to be directed to A.L.: why does the O'Keefe and Giles "sting" so bother A.L. while "stings" by the regular press don't seem to bother A.L. in the same way?
Eclectic Radical:
Yes. I think there are a lot of conservatives who really do believe that actively helping the poor is a bad thing.
No, we don't. We just don't think helping the poor should be done the way you seem to think it should be done, via state-sanctioned theft of an individual's private property to be redistributed to politicians' preferred constituency du jour.
"No, we don't. We just don't think helping the poor should be done the way you seem to think it should be done, via state-sanctioned theft of an individual's private property to be redistributed to politicians' preferred constituency du jour." Steve AR
Then Steve, Respectfully, please begin aggitating for repeal of thos Articles and Amendments to the Constitution that authorize both the income tax, and Congresses power to appropriate that tax for use by the Federal Government. Recognize, however, that doing so will also defund our military, Social Security, and a whole host of programs that Conservative politicians consider their preferred constituency du jour.
Shorter Steve:
"Look, I'm trying to point out that AL is a hypocrite because he hasn't condemned (even though he has and I've directly quoted it) schemes done by media outlets which are ostensibly similar to this ACORN stuff as he condemns these conservative activists - would you please be kind enough not to point out that I'm a hypocrite since I won't call the conservative activists slimy for doing the same thing I feel NBC et al are slimy for? I'm trying to score points here, and calling me out on my internal inconsistency doesn't help. Thanks."
A.L.
This casuisty aside (it's okay for the Left, but not the Right) seems to contain more fallacies than substance. Great for my critical thinking course.
I don't care WHO exposes fraud, once exposed, we have a duty to impede "harm and injury to others."
When will you good people learn to stop feeding the troll?
I think SteveAR is a perfect example of the those who are going after ACORN, health care, global warming etc. The Republicans have become a party full of trolls who have become so comfortable with lying and misdirection that it's impossible to keep a tally of it all.
So do we ignore him or do we call him out? If he repeatedly feels it necessary to demonstrate his inability to understand A.L.'s post, I think it's only fair to respond. But hey, this isn't my blog and if A.L. wants me to cut it out, I will happily oblige.
A.L. never even considers that the regular press engages in the same type of "sting" that O'Keefe and Giles pulled off.
Except when he did.
In the final paragraph of the original post.
Which I've reprinted for you like a gazillion times.
OK, as a favor to Jazzbumpa, I'll try one more time and then I'll drop it. Steve, I know it's the "wrong question", but I'm hoping that you can man-up like Ann Coulter and talk to us liberals and give us an answer once and for all.
Do you agree that the techniques used by O'Keefe and Giles were every bit as slimy as those you decry the press for using or don't you? You don't need to go into the intricacies of NASCAR, the economics of "Porkulus" or point to what A.L. hasn't written about.
It's a very simple, yes or no answer.
Anonymous (4:17pm):
"A.L. never even considers that the regular press engages in the same type of "sting" that O'Keefe and Giles pulled off.
Except when he did.
In the final paragraph of the original post.
No he didn't, not in that last paragraph. Here's what A.L. said:
And until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company, and starts ignoring it or exposing it for the nonsense that it is, they'll continue to do it, destroying people's lives and reputations in the process.
The "they'll" he refers to are those he mentions in the previous paragraph, O'Keefe, Giles, and potential various copycats.
Shorter nerpzillicus, "All groups are equal, but groups that we leftists support are more equal than others."
stevear just couldnt do it. i would slap that bitch in the face if i saw him in person.
I'm brand new to this blog, and even I could tell, right from the get-go, that Steve is a troll!
I recently spent some time in an extreme red backwater, and I guarantee that I could have secretly filmed dozens of people referring to "that N-word in the white house", and stating what they'd do if he had the nerve to show up in their area.
What does this mean? Very little. These are law-abiding people, except where game laws, traffic laws, and government land regulations are the issue. What people say in inconsequential conversation and what people actually do, or say in a public forum, are two very different things.
I hadn't even been aware of any journalists using hidden-camera methods, and I'm absolutely floored that a significant number of NASCAR enthusiasts and Waco residents would display racism. Who would have believed it? That must have been a real news scoop.
Just as an organization which hires people of limited means would have at least some employees who are not more honest than they need to be. Amazing.
If ACORN only hired wealthy financial analysts (say, from AIG corporation's Financial Products Division), I'm sure those two fakers would, at some offices, have been offered financial and legal advice, though probably not as good -- and for a fee.
Doggonit, AL. You sure have a knack of writing about stuff I've got in my head but sooner and smarter. (I'm still annoyed you used the Underpants Gnomes reference before I got around to it!)
One of the things I noted in my posting on the stings is how reality prank shows have demonstrated how possible it is to manipulate someone into embarrasing behavior. I cited Zach Braff being on the verge of striking a 12 to 13 year old kid when he was on Punk'd.
I also noted that in the Brooklyn video in particular, the woman was emotionally manipulated into being part of the couple's propaganda video. If you watch that one, the girl clearly says that she's trying to escape an abusive pimp and getting a house to work out of is part of her attempt to escape. Giles was particularly rotten in that video, as she tries to insinuate into the converastion, almost as a quiet aside, that she's going to be using underage prostitutes. Again, though, she says that she wants to help young girls who are the victim of predators, but she doesn't say flat out she's going to pimp them herself.
And this already has been done to other targets. O'Keefe has done Planned Parenthood "stings" and if you look him up at Media Matters you will find video of him going around to the homes of credulous minorities and telling them they've won the Obama bail-out lottery.
Having once been the target of a "sting"/ practical joke at work that made me look very stupid, I can relate completely to what AL is saying.
What I do not understand is why ACORN did not get on the ball sooner, & warn its employees about entrapment.
There is a fine line between a "sting" and entrapment. I think these would-be stingers will get their retribution.
...until the press realizes that this technique can be used to slime just about any organization or company...
Hmmmm, perhaps we should sponsor them and send them to, oh, the WaPo news room.
I grew up with a press that had a very pronounced "liberal" bias on many issues and that used tactics just like this to make conservatives look bad. Going to conservative functions and trolling for the biggest nut or biggest moron to get on camera was a tactic used repeatedly by the old liberal MSM in the 90's and 80's. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now when used on "liberals" either.
Fox News has taken all the worst tactics the old liberal network news shows used and doubled up on the dishonesty. I find Fox News tough to watch as a conservative because it is a propaganda channel 100 percent. Far worse than "liberal bias" that used to dominate the press.
This "Sting" was a joke from beginning to end. Any liberal with a camera could walk into any "conservative" organization and with a little effort- find the dumbest idiot to babble on camera about "new world orders" and how Saddam attacked on us 9/11. That wouldn't be "news". It would be propaganda.
Why didn't ACORN warn their people sooner? Because they had no idea what sort of assault they were under. The Reich Wing noise machine targeted them (quite cynically mind you) and these poorly paid activists- most not sophisticated- were wholly unprepared for it.
While the nation is being pillaged by a handful of financial houses who control the Fed- by DC insiders- the fake corporate right wing of Fox News distracts the herd with idiocy about ACORN. That it is mostly a black group that was targeted was no accident.
The campaign against ACORN was in no way grassroots. It was started and run by very cynical men as a distraction.
I'd like to post an answer to your question -- "No conservative has bothered to even offer a theory as to why it would be in ACORN's interest to assist people in setting up prostitution rings. How would ACORN benefit from such activity? How would these individual employees benefit? What's in it for them?"
The conservatives didn't need to provide a reason for ACORN's interest because the whole sting exhibits the "dogwhistle" attitude of the right wing. The right wing only needed to validate their core belief that ACORN workers are scum, scofflaws, welfare queens, leeches, etc., whose goal is to raise taxes on the worthy, hard working, up by the bootstrap people like them. ACORN would benefit because, in the right's view, ACORN is the biggest pimp of them all.
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