The Mistake of Assuming the Existence of GOP Core Principles
In setting the stage for the current health care reform debate, the Obama administration made a significant (and in retrospect questionable) strategic decision; instead of following the typical Democratic playbook and framing the debate around covering the uninsured, they instead chose to frame the debate around the need to contain costs. At the time, this seemed like a brilliant idea. After all, it is universally acknowledged that the cost of health care is out of control and that something must be done to "bend the curve." By framing the debate in this way, you build momentum for change by emphasizing the unsustainability of the status quo. Moreover, containing the costs of programs like Medicare had long been a staple of GOP politics. By marrying health care reform to the goal of cutting costs, the Obama administration figured it could blunt many of the most likely criticisms from the GOP (e.g. that the Democrats were proposing some expensive new entitlement program).
But as the "death panel" discussion of the last few weeks has illustrated, the Obama administration appears to have committed the classic political error of underestimating the shamelessness of the GOP. The Obama administration assumed (incorrectly) that the GOP has core principles that it will not sacrifice for the sake of political expediency. They were wrong. The party that has spent the four decades attacking Medicare and trying to cut its expenditures is now openly accusing the Democrats of trying to kill senior citizens by taking away their Medicare coverage. Republican-affiliated groups are running ads warning seniors that the Democrats want to take away their health care and euthanize them. The party that has literally spent decades complaining about Medicare demagoguery on the part of Democrats is now itself engaged in Medicare demagoguery to a degree that would make even the most shameless Democratic politician feel uncomfortable.
There is a moral to this story. You can't outflank a party that doesn't feel tied to any particular policy position. The GOP will oppose the Democratic agenda using whatever means and whatever arguments it thinks will be effective, regardless of whether they contradict everything the party supposedly stands for. The sooner that Democrats understand this, the better able they'll be to deal with it.
UPDATE: To get a sense of the current state of our political discourse, check out this post at the National Review by Andy McCarthy (who, by the way, is now completely barking mad). McCarthy is angry at his own publication, the National Review, for publishing an editorial that ever so mildly admonishes Sarah Palin for her "death panel" remarks (while implicitly defending them). McCarthy writes:
But then he goes truly off the deep end and compares this completely innocuous provision to an enemy state with thousands of nuclear missiles aimed at us. But that's not all, a little further down in the post he takes issue with the Editors grudging acknowledgment that Obama doesn't actually want to kill old people:
So to sum up, McCarthy is livid about the (imaginary) evil death panels that Sarah Palin managed to save us from and believes that Obama wants to create such panels in order to cut off care for the elderly, thereby allowing them to "wither away prematurely" (which, apparently, Obama wanted to happen to his own grandmother). McCarthy, on the other hand, believes we should let "liberty and the market" take care of our elderly people, a suggestion that would demonstrably result in most elderly people not having access to health care.
This man--this lunatic--is writing for THE flagship conservative publication in this country.
But as the "death panel" discussion of the last few weeks has illustrated, the Obama administration appears to have committed the classic political error of underestimating the shamelessness of the GOP. The Obama administration assumed (incorrectly) that the GOP has core principles that it will not sacrifice for the sake of political expediency. They were wrong. The party that has spent the four decades attacking Medicare and trying to cut its expenditures is now openly accusing the Democrats of trying to kill senior citizens by taking away their Medicare coverage. Republican-affiliated groups are running ads warning seniors that the Democrats want to take away their health care and euthanize them. The party that has literally spent decades complaining about Medicare demagoguery on the part of Democrats is now itself engaged in Medicare demagoguery to a degree that would make even the most shameless Democratic politician feel uncomfortable.
There is a moral to this story. You can't outflank a party that doesn't feel tied to any particular policy position. The GOP will oppose the Democratic agenda using whatever means and whatever arguments it thinks will be effective, regardless of whether they contradict everything the party supposedly stands for. The sooner that Democrats understand this, the better able they'll be to deal with it.
UPDATE: To get a sense of the current state of our political discourse, check out this post at the National Review by Andy McCarthy (who, by the way, is now completely barking mad). McCarthy is angry at his own publication, the National Review, for publishing an editorial that ever so mildly admonishes Sarah Palin for her "death panel" remarks (while implicitly defending them). McCarthy writes:
I don't see any wisdom in taking a shot at Governor Palin at this moment when, finding themselves unable to defend the plan against her indictment, Democrats have backed down and withdrawn their "end-of-life counseling" boards. Palin did a tremendous service here. Opinion elites didn't like what the editors imply is the "hysteria" of her "death panels" charge. Many of those same elites didn't like Ronald Reagan's jarring "evil empire" rhetoric. But "death panels" caught on with the public just like "evil empire" did because, for all their "heat rather than light" tut-tutting, critics could never quite discredit it. ("BusHitler," by contrast, did not catch on with the public because it was so easily refuted.)First, as is his wont, McCarthy lies pretty badly about what was actually being proposed. He characterizes a completely sensible and non-controversial provision (which was, until a few weeks ago, championed by key Republicans)--a provision that would have reimbursed doctors for voluntary counseling about living wills and health care directives--as creating "end-of-life counseling boards."
But then he goes truly off the deep end and compares this completely innocuous provision to an enemy state with thousands of nuclear missiles aimed at us. But that's not all, a little further down in the post he takes issue with the Editors grudging acknowledgment that Obama doesn't actually want to kill old people:
I happen to think that something like death panels is exactly what is desired by Obama — who is an abortion extremist, who supported a form of infanticide when he was an Illinois state legislator, and who has wondered aloud about the value of end-of-life care provided for his own grandmother.He goes on to explain:
The whole point of health-care "reform" is to enable something other than the combination of individual liberty and market forces — namely, government bureaucrats — to do the inevitable rationing.Of course, if we were to let "liberty and market forces" do the rationing when it comes to health care for the elderly, the result would be no health care for most elderly Americans. That's because elderly people consume a lot of health care and therefore it makes no economic sense for private insurers to cover them (at least at affordable rates). That's why we have Medicare in the first place. That's the problem Medicare was designed to solve. It is thanks to the "government bureaucrats" that grandma gets to go to the doctor at all.
So to sum up, McCarthy is livid about the (imaginary) evil death panels that Sarah Palin managed to save us from and believes that Obama wants to create such panels in order to cut off care for the elderly, thereby allowing them to "wither away prematurely" (which, apparently, Obama wanted to happen to his own grandmother). McCarthy, on the other hand, believes we should let "liberty and the market" take care of our elderly people, a suggestion that would demonstrably result in most elderly people not having access to health care.
This man--this lunatic--is writing for THE flagship conservative publication in this country.



73 Comments:
I fully agree with your basic point -- that the GOP's real goal here is to make it impossible for the Democrats to pass any major policy initiative. Could you be a little clearer, though, on how one can hope to "deal with it."
what amazes me is that the gop espouses the evangelical views of its christian core as if they are ready to handle snakes and sing gospels, but then they help turn actual human beings into dollar signs. can you imagine if jesus charged a co pay?
I have to admit, I never did read the bible that closely. Apparently, that JC guy was an incredible tax reformer. I think he's supposed to return and herald some great epoch of low taxes, or something.
There is a moral to this story.
There is a real moral to this story. There are more than enough Democrats to pass health "reform" in the House without a single Republican vote. There are enough Democratic votes in the Senate to keep a filibuster from stopping a cloture vote, and more than enough Democrats to pass health "reform", all without a single Republican vote. The real moral to the story is that some Democrats in Congress are keeping the other Democrats in Congress from getting a bill passed.
The only shameless demagoguery is coming from leftists and Democrats who keep trying to blame Republicans for something Democrats can pass without a single Republican vote.
Good to see you posting again.
This is an important point you make on our assumptions on Republican goals and motives. I think another assumption that must be challenged is the motives and goals of the Democrats. Why do we assume they want to reform health care? They're being paid by the insurance companies. Their goal is to protect the system while seeming to reform it. Wailing about the fact that they "don't stand up" to the Republicans is missing the point.
But Allan Uthman said it better than I ever could:
http://buffalobeast.com/138/Surprise.htm
Steve,
For once I actually agree with you (at least the first part). The Dems really do only have themselves to blame at the end of the day. But that doesn't excuse the shamelessness of the GOP. They're just lying through their teeth, about everything.
A.L.:
But that doesn't excuse the shamelessness of the GOP. They're just lying through their teeth, about everything.
Sure it does. Obama and every Democrat who won elections in 2008 won them through demagoguery from those same shameless Democrats, especially Obama. He ran against George Bush instead of John McCain and it worked out well. Then, Obama pretty much kept in all of Bush's national security policies, and expanded on the Bush administration's hideous banking policy last year which has done nothing but create a massive welfare system for banks and have done nothing to fix the banking problems. On a side note, Corzine is trying to run against George Bush in his re-election bid since he knows running on his own disastrous policies would cause him to become unemployed.
And speaking of demagoguery, how about Obama's past demonization of pharmaceutical companies because of what he calls the outrageous costs of their products, then striking a deal with their lobbyists that will end up hardly saving drug costs?
By the way, you object to what are called lies by the GOP, especially with the phrase "death panels". Well, what do you think a government-subsidized "end-of-life counseling" session would do, discuss chess or bringing babies into the world? So it really isn't demagoguery by a shameless GOP, is it? They're just using a phrase you don't like, even if it is more akin to the truth than you would like to admit.
By the way, you object to what are called lies by the GOP, especially with the phrase "death panels". Well, what do you think a government-subsidized "end-of-life counseling" session would do, discuss chess or bringing babies into the world? So it really isn't demagoguery by a shameless GOP, is it? They're just using a phrase you don't like, even if it is more akin to the truth than you would like to admit.
Steve, is there any GOP line you won't buy into?
Most people don't want to be kept alive on tubes by extraordinary means when there is no hope left. That's why I, for instance, have a living will and health care directive making that clear (as do most people who've though about such issues). But I'm an attorney and part of a family of doctors, so I know about such things. Many people would like to be able to talk to their doctors about such things and plan for such contingencies, but because Medicare doesn't re-imburse doctors for such counseling, most doctors are unwilling to designate the time to do so.
All this provision did was re-imburse doctors for such time so that -- IF a patient wanted to discuss such issues -- their doctor could devote the time to answer their questions.
This was a completely non-controversial provision that was supported by almost everyone and pushed by Republicans like Johnny Isakson. But shameless liars like Sarah Palin decided to lie about it and use it as a weapon to attack Democrats, so now dutifully partisan Republicans like yourself have to pretend that there is something scary or sinister going on here. That's pathetic.
It's a good thing for people to be able to talk to their doctors about such issues. Not only does it save money (taxpayer money), but more importantly, it allows people to have their end-of-life wishes known and complied with, which is good for both patients and their families. Thanks to liars like Sarah Palin, however, patients will not be able to have such discussions with their doctors. Awesome work GOP!
AL,
Re Andy McCarthy, I think we will have to acknowledge that ironclad matters of principle do not always make a lot of utilitarian sense.
The ACLU seeks to strike down any nativity scene on public property but will defend to the death nativity scenes on private property. Evangelical Christians just hear "opposed to nativity scenes" and don't see the importance of the distinction between public and private property. (And I personally agree that the ACLU is unreasonably pigheaded, but that's a different matter).
I think we are seeing a core libertarian principle here -- actual access to healthcare to senior or the chronically ill matters less to libertarians than whether government or private actors are gatekeepers. Denial of a procedure because Medicare doesn't allow it is monstrous tyranny. Lack of access to any healthcare at all because one is too old or sick to afford it is the innocent workings of the free market.
The difference is that so long has we have the unlimited right to set up nativity scenes on private property, their presence or absence on public property makes very little difference to anyone's actual quality of life. Whether the old or the chronically ill have access to healthcare make a great deal of difference.
well put enlightened layperson, well put.
A.L.:
All this provision did was re-imburse doctors for such time so that -- IF a patient wanted to discuss such issues -- their doctor could devote the time to answer their questions.
Wrong. I just re-read the House version of H.R. 3200 Sec. 1233, the section in question. Subsection (a):
(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.
This subsection requires a practitioner to include end-of-life counseling as part of what is called "advanced care planning", not the other way around as you assert.
And who will make sure this counseling occurs? Subsection (b):
(A) IN GENERAL- For purposes of reporting data on quality measures for covered professional services furnished during 2011 and any subsequent year, to the extent that measures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.
Although not shown in this section, other sections also reference consensus-based organizations (entities). Assuming these are the same, these were added as part of Sec. 183 of last year's Medicare Improvements Act. It looks very much to me that such a government-contracted entity would be the "death panels", making sure medical practitioners adhere to the end-of-life counseling they are required to perform.
You know, it's amusing you keep harping on GOP "demagoguery" and don't bother with Obama's demagoguery. Remember how Obama was talking about how doctors were happily lopping off the limbs of diabetics in order for the doctors to improve their revenues and increase their profits? I noticed you haven't mentioned that.
I don't know whether McCarthy is literally insane as much as he is evil. But that's like the debate between "stupid" and "lying": whichever it is is beside the point.
SteveAr,
I presume that if you could have found a part of the bill that says what you claim it says, you would have quoted it. The portion you did quote doesn't say what you claim at all. If you're going to try that nonesense, you'd be better off trying it at some site where the literacy rate is lower than this one. Try the Free Republic, I'm sure they'd appreciate your "insights".
The only shameless demagoguery is coming from leftists and Democrats who keep trying to blame Republicans for something Democrats can pass without a single Republican vote.
Well put Stevie. If we can only get 59 out of 60 Democrats on board, how can we possibly blame the 0 for 40 Republicans? That just wouldn't be fair.
"This subsection requires a practitioner to include end-of-life counseling "
That is a bald faced lie. You are either semi-illiterate or a shameless liar....to yourself.
AL, thanks for your service to rationality and civility. I don't often contribute but 9 times out of 10 I'm heartily cheering at my terminal.
Jim P.
Anonymous (7:44pm):
I presume that if you could have found a part of the bill that says what you claim it says, you would have quoted it.
Anonymous (9:00pm):
That is a bald faced lie. You are either semi-illiterate or a shameless liar....to yourself.
I linked to the House version of H.R. 3200 earlier. But if you didn't read it, here's what it says. Sec. 1233(a) of this bill amends Sec. 1861 of the Social Security Act to add subsection (hhh), which I quoted in part in the earlier comment. Here's the beginning of new subsection (hhh)(1) again, along with new subparagraph (E):
‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:
[snip]
‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
That is part of what medical practitioners will be required to do if this passes, which is the complete opposite of what A.L. is saying.
Frankie:
Well put Stevie. If we can only get 59 out of 60 Democrats on board, how can we possibly blame the 0 for 40 Republicans?
Because there are 60 Democrats. If Senate Democrats aren't united in getting this passed, that is the fault of the Democrats, not the Republicans.
"By the way, you object to what are called lies by the GOP, especially with the phrase 'death panels'."
The reason why such things are called lies is because that is what they are. If you don't want people on your side of the aisle to be called liars, it'd be a good thing for them not to, y'know, lie about things.
"Because there are 60 Democrats. If Senate Democrats aren't united in getting this passed, that is the fault of the Democrats, not the Republicans."
Interesting how if one side commits 98% of its numbers to support something, and the other won't even commit 2% of its own, the side that is marching in lockstep no longer bears any responsibility whatsoever.
Steve:
Sec. 1233(a) of this bill amends Sec. 1861 of the Social Security Act to add subsection (hhh), which I quoted in part in the earlier comment. Here's the beginning of new subsection (hhh)(1) again, along with new subparagraph (E):
‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:
[snip]
‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
This is defining what Medicare is to reimburse if the patient requests it. Just because Medicare would be required to cover such a session does not mean that all Medicare recipients are required to undergo such a session. I could undoubtedly find a huge number of procedures that the statute defines and requires Medicare to pay for. It does not logically follow that all patients on Medicare are required to undergo all procedures that Medicare is required to cover.
The law requires that if a patient seeks such advice, the physician is required to explain that pallitive care, hospice, declining heroic measures, etc are options. It does not say which option patients are required to choose. If you want to sign an advanced directive ordering that every measure be undertaken to prolong your life no matter what, you would have that right under this provision.
For further information, see this interview with Senator Isakson, the author of the provision.
Steve, everyone saw what you quoted. What you quoted simply does not mean what you claim it means. It means Medicare is required to cover the bill for advance care planning, provided the patient has not had a similar session within five years. Plain and simple.
Quoting it again and accusing someone of missing it, when they flat out tell you that you have totally misrepresented what you quoted (correct) and claim you have failed to quote a portion of the bill supporting your statements (also correct), isn't going to convince anyone you aren't either totally misunderstanding or totally misrepresenting what you are excerpting.
Regardless of which it is, it doesn't make your argument any more convincing than it was without the quotation.
Like "Christian values", Republicans seem happy to toss those supposedly core values aside as well.
From long experiencing interacting with people on the Right who claim to be Christians, I'm continually amazed how far they are willing to lie, cheat, lie some more, cheat more - usually to further a cause that ultimately hurts themselves. What the past nine years has taught me is that THE most amoral people in the US are the so-called 'Christians'.
Many states have regulations that require a woman who asks for an abortion to read information about fetal development, view pictures, read about adoption, and sit through a waiting period before obtaining the abortion. This is legal because it's just information and isn't necessarily coercive or put undue pressure on the right to obtain the abortion.
Turn around, and all of a sudden Republicans are screaming that Medicare paying for counseling for living wills and end-of-life directives, if requested by the patient, are death panels. By the logic from the first example, you'd think they should be willing to give patients rigorous information about their choices. I think the real problem here is that a large group of Republicans just think hospice and other decisions made by people in their living wills are plain evil. Remember the Schaivo debacle?
To clarify on the last post, I'm not passing a judgment on the restrictions put on how/when abortion can be obtained, but rather using it as an example that Republicans are uninterested in providing information if it doesn't fit their agenda. Some Republicans don't want this paid by Medicare period, and they're not above mischaracterizing it. After all, they know living-wills are popular, so they can only kill the proposal by lying.
it occurs to me that they don't actually know what "hospice" and/or "palliative" mean. that'd explain why SteveAR, for example, keeps shoving it at us as if it's some damning evidence of ... Something Bad.
i have a good friend who volunteers at a hospice center a couple days a week. it's the most amazing thing to hear her speak about it.
Whereas Democrats don't like these restrictions not because they want to promote abortion (they want to discourage it usually, but they also want the choice available), but because they feel they are coercive on choice. It wouldn't be right to say that Democrats are coercing the eldery to write living wills, because the language of the bill here only refers to payment for counseling if requested by the patient.
This is all well and good, if you buy that the "death panels" were attached solely to Medicare cuts. They were not. Obama himself stated that the chronically and terminally ill as well as the elderly accounted for 80% of healthcare costs, and that tough moral decisions would need to be made in the name of cutting costs. (this was in New York Times magazine, hardly a conservative rag.)
The truth is that people are already deciding who lives and dies; they are in the health insurance industry. People didn't want to give the government that control.
But it's not a republican decision, now is it? The dems have the numbers. If your man has the cajones (and I think we can all agree given his pathetic waivering over this and just about every other issue that he doesn't), Congress can pass that legislation. Dems control Congress and are (for now) sitting in the Oval Office.
Who has "core principles"? The strength of their conviction? Guess we'll find out when Congress reconvenes next month. When it doesn't pass, though, it's always nice to blame the republicans (who don't have the numbers to stop it, if I haven't made that clear yet).
All I have heard is we need reform and it must be a government run option. Why nothing else? Why not look at what is truly driving up cost? I have heard a defense to my argument that the doctors order tests you don't need to get compensated. And that certainly happens but it also contains the doctors who have to order tests they may feel aren't needed in order to make sure they are covered and don't get sued. But back to my main point which is if we the people took a more proactive role in our own health care by losing weight and quitting smoking it would drive down cost for everyone. We would lower heart related issues and diabetes and cancer rates. All of this would drop the use of health insurance for tests and medicine we really dont need.
Monkeysuit
http://randompoliticalthoughtsandnews.blogspot.com/
"But back to my main point which is if we the people took a more proactive role in our own health care by losing weight and quitting smoking it would drive down cost for everyone. We would lower heart related issues and diabetes and cancer rates."
And any government policy to force people to do so would be every bit as coercive and anti-libertarian as any bullshit that the right makes up about the health care reform plans currently being kicked around. What is more, obesity (despite the popularity in claiming otherwise across the board) can be as closely tied to genetics and environment as it is to 'personal responsibility.'
Or (as in the case of my partner) someone can have had a steroid prescribed in their childhood, after cancer surgery, ballooned in weight as a result, and never been able to lose it. I eat far more and far 'worse' than her, but I am at a 'healthy weight' and she is 'obese.'
The 'personal responsibility' and 'moral hazard' arguments, as they pertain to health care, are not as cut and dried as we want them to be.
prodigal:
Interesting how if one side commits 98% of its numbers to support something, and the other won't even commit 2% of its own, the side that is marching in lockstep no longer bears any responsibility whatsoever.
Amazing. Since Porkulus was signed into law, Democrats have gained two seats (Specter and Franken) and they still complain. Republicans shouldn't vote for this and let Democrats own it, just as with the disaster that is Porkulus. Get over it.
Enlightened Layperson:
This is defining what Medicare is to reimburse if the patient requests it.
Others have mentioned that this is not a mandate. I've read it over and over and I don't see it as anything but a mandate, a requirement by Medicare to include these end-of-life consultations as part of what is called "advanced care planning". Enlightened Layperson adds in an interview by Sen. Isakson, who, by the way, didn't write the House bill that I linked to. Besides, I'm not the only one who noticed; both Charles Lane and Eugene Robinson, neither of which could be confused for those who support Republicans or being conservatives, noticed it as well. As Lane says:
Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren’t quite “purely voluntary,” as Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, “purely voluntary” means “not unless the patient requests one.” Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive — money — to do so. Indeed, that’s an incentive to insist.
Neither Lane or Robinson were particularly kind to Palin for her "death panel" remarks; yet, both see this section as something other than what is being described, purely voluntary on the part of the patient. It doesn't look that way to me (it looks to be more of a requirement, in my opinion), and it doesn't look that way to them. And when you take a look at the added incentives to offer such consultations, plus the part in there (subsection (b)(1)) about how these consultations will be measured, Palin's remarks aren't off base.
@ SteveAR:
And who will make sure this counseling occurs? Subsection (b):
(A) IN GENERAL- For purposes of reporting data on quality measures for covered professional services furnished during 2011 and any subsequent year, to the extent that measures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.
Steve, as someone who does performance measurement for a federal agency (among many other duties) I hope you'll allow me to tell you what this means to us bureaucrats. This is a directive to the appropriate Cabinet Secretary (I assume H&HS) to develop performance reporting measures that will tell the public, the President, and Congress how much end of life counseling was conducted under Medicare dollars in a given year (after 2011) and how effective that counseling was in helping the patient make decisions,as well as the effectiveness of the implementation of any medicalorders arrising from the counseling. Those measures are to be based on the results of the actions of a consensus orgainzation - such as a doctor's panel or experts in geriatriacs, medical ethics, and economics.
All this hubub about a requirement for the Secretary to report on the efficacy of government spending?? Really??? Death Panels from this?? Seriously??????
The other amazing thing about the right wing lies about health care reform is how their minions will post till the death about how right the lies are.
For example, the alleged "death panels" are already a part of Medicare which the Republicans supported.
Yet, to have it as a voluntary program as part of health care reform means older people will be "euthanized".
It's not just SteveAR, listen to any rightwing or alleged "Christian" radio program and they promote this crap as truth.
AL, I think you are being unfair. Sure, it is obvious to you that Obama is not proposing another expensive government entitlement program, but, as you have pointed out many times before, you are way, way smarter than the Republicans. Just because you understand that Obama’s proposal to spend a trillion dollars and extend coverage to 50 million people will actually save money, doesn’t mean that the mentally impaired Republicans do. Remember, these are the same people who claim Obama is responsible for creating a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit, even though Obama has patiently explained that the deficit would be even higher if it were not for his actions in approving the stimulus package, the omnibus spending bill, the bailouts, etc.
If Republicans were not stuck in the antiquated mathematical concepts of the past (2 plus 2 equal 4), they could appreciate the fact that when Obama proposes to spend more money on the uninsured, this means that the uninsured will receive higher quality healthcare at a lower cost. When Obama proposes to spend less money on Medicare, this means that beneficiaries will receive higher quality healthcare at a lower cost. The Republicans are simply too stupid to understand these concepts.
Now if you want to talk about people who are malicious and unprincipled, lets look at that Congressional Budget Office . . .
MLS,
You really should read the posts a little more carefully before commenting. This post had nothing to do with whether or not Obama was proposing an entitlement or how much it would cost. I made zero assertions on that front, one way or the other. My point was strictly limited to the Obama administration's choice of framing and the Republican response to it.
For the record, I am not denying that the part of the proposal intended to expand coverage for the uninsured will cost money (which is why the bill includes tax increase). But there are also parts of the proposal that really would help control costs, which is something Republicans have claimed for decades to be interested in doing. But instead they are trying to scare seniors.
And by the way, MLS, your sarcasm about Republicans being stuck with antiquidated mathematical concepts of 2+2 equaling 4 is unintentionally hilarious. The GOP long ago abandoned math. In GOP land, 2 minus 2 equal 4. You can cut taxes and magically increase overall revenue. You can criticize the cost of this initiative, but at least the Democrats are grappling seriously with the question of how to pay for it (by reducing existing costs and raising taxes).
SteveAR, for god's sake wake up and stop being such a mindless shill. Why do you bother waste your time - and ours - peddling this crap here?
My dentist gets paid for filling cavities. That doesn't mean I'm at risk of being strapped down and having every tooth forcibly replaced with metal.
"There are more than enough Democrats to pass health "reform" in the House without a single Republican vote"
God I hope they would. But here's what'll happen: the Dems will "bipartisan" the plan to death by catering to the the Right's irresponsible lying Talking Points (which you parrot here so tirelessly). The subsequent pile of crap will be put to a vote and not a single Republican will vote for the garbage that they shamelessly lobbied for. If it passes it'll be on the Dems shoulders. The Republicans "win' because they stopped Obama from passing something good and important. Whoopee for them.
What I think SHOULD happen is that the Dems grow a pair, craft a bill with NO right-wing input, and pass that. Yeah - I'm a dreamer.
I don't really take your point on the strategic question.
You are misidentifying the real opposition. Obama needs to deal with the party of no, but will be defeated, not by the Repbulicans, but by the Blue Dogs - which was the case from the start, no matter what the Republicans did.
The cost cutting approach was the best effort at blunting the arguments of his real opposition, the Blue Dogs. In emphasizing the cost cutting, he also drove a wedge between the few moderate Republicans and the full on crazies.
Do you have a better idea?
Luke:
My dentist gets paid for filling cavities. That doesn't mean I'm at risk of being strapped down and having every tooth forcibly replaced with metal.
A.L.'s post was about the demagoguery of shameless Republicans. So what do you do? Engage in demagoguery.
And as I mentioned, A.L. never bothered mentioning the demagoguery of the shameless Obama when the President was trying to tell people how surgeons were happily lopping off limbs of diabetics in order to increase their revenue.
A.L.:
You can criticize the cost of this initiative, but at least the Democrats are grappling seriously with the question of how to pay for it (by reducing existing costs and raising taxes).
You can criticize the GOP (and there is much to criticize) for their fiscal follies. But the track record of President Obama and the Democratic leadership of the 111th Congress in regards to being fiscally responsible or helping the economy shows it is way more irresponsible and incompetent in policy thinking and policy execution (Porkulus, Cash-for-Clunkers, fixing the financial system). The GOP isn't in power now, the Dems are. There is no reason to believe that what the Democrats are proposing will be anything but an extension of that incompetence, and there is plenty of evidence showing it.
As a lawyer, I find Andy's rhetoric to be uniquely disingenuous and deeply disturbing, yet also fascinating.
I can only imagine what kind of federal prosecutor he must have been, when he had the full force of the government behind his every move.
SteveAR never quits: "A.L.'s post was about the demagoguery of shameless Republicans. So what do you do? Engage in demagoguery."
Sorry, nice try. There are liars and politicians everywhere on both sides and that's not news. But there's a HUGE (and capital letters aren't big enough to express it) difference between your ongoing parroting and peddling of shameless lies, disinformation and hypocrisy for some nebulous gain, and the actual reality of the situation. This endless quote mining, misinterpretation, and accusing others of your own faults - where does it get you?
But to your point, I *should* separate "The Right" from you personally. So, to be clear, The Right is a deluded mass of ignorant hypocritical shills cruelly lying with screaming voices the talking points spoon fed to them by highly paid lobbyists. You, on the other hand, are a deluded shill cruelly lying the talking points that are spoon fed to you by highly paid lobbyists.
I appreciate that you don't scream, so thanks for that.
Thanks – although I try to reach out to that tiny group of honest conservatives, I get a bit sick of whining about conservatism being "tarred" by the decisions conservatives have overwhelmingly supported for years, including every horrible abuse of the Bush administration. Welcome aboard to those who've joined the reality-based community. It still doesn't mean most conservative policies are any good except for a select privileged few, but yeah, we can discuss those.
Regardless, it just isn't a secret what movement conservatism has and continues to be. There are barely any honest conservatives on the national level. The hacks like Betsy McCaughey, Grassley and Palin selling the "death panels" and the zealots who believe it run the range from grossly irresponsible scoundrels to dangerous crazies. The Republican party has cultivated that frenzy since at least the 60s, and they're still fanning the flames now. Some even have the gall to blame the birther nonsense on Democrats. It'd be nice if the media covered these dynamics well, but the GOP has rarely paid a high price for this sort of crap, if any price at all. National Democrats are too beholden to corporate interests, but liberal bloggers criticize them for that, and national Democrats just don't lie on the frequency and scale of Republicans. Nor are Democrats using eliminationist rhetoric and bullying, hostile crowds. Any conservative who won't own up to those dynamics or who traffics in false equivalencies is just whining, not making a serious, good faith argument.
McCarthy seems to be saying that even though what Palin said was utter bullshit, it's good politics, but that may be too generous to him at that. Reagan himself regretted the "Evil Empire" line (according to Will Bunch's recent book), and it was never that "popular" outside of the group of juvenile conservatives who think foreign policy and war itself should be treated like a sports event. McCarthy went over to crazyland a few months before the election, and he's never come back to sanity (if he was ever there).
Steve AR,
Let me leave you with one final thought. When Congress tries to pass a bill of over a thousand pages, it is a good bet that the bill's advocates will see some parts of the bill core principles that admit no compromise and some parts not so basic -- nice, but the sort of thing one can compromise on for the sake of attracting votes.
Now that fact that the proposal to require coverage for end-life counseling originated with a Georgia Republican obviously does not prove that it is right. It does not even prove that these counseling sessions are not death panels. But the fact that it was introduced by a Republican is sort of a hint that it may not be a core principle for Democrats.
The core principle for Democrats is that this bill requires everyone to have insurance and provides subsidies for people who cannot afford it. There is a bitter intra-party dispute over whether offering a public option (that no one is required to accept, BTW) is also a core principle. Coverage of end of life counseling, not so much.
Democrats are perfectly willing to drop this provision or, I would suggest as an alternative, to forbid covage unless the patient requests such a session, if it would actually attract more votes. The trouble, of course, is that it would not. I doubt that removing this provision would sway so much as a single Republican vote.
Kind of makes you think that is not the Republican's real objection at all.
Luke:
But there's a HUGE (and capital letters aren't big enough to express it) difference between your ongoing parroting and peddling of shameless lies, disinformation and hypocrisy for some nebulous gain, and the actual reality of the situation. This endless quote mining, misinterpretation, and accusing others of your own faults - where does it get you?
Quote mining? Of whom? Obama? A.L.? Didn't Obama say what I said he said? That isn't quote mining, and he was called on what he said by the AMA (which I linked to earlier). Didn't A.L. completely ignore Obama's demagoguery to focus on supposed demagoguery by conservatives? Absolutely. So I put in part of Charles Lane's column questioning the section in question. Did you read the whole thing? I did. Did you read Eugene Robinson's column? I did. The reality is that there is real concern out there, even from those who aren't conservatives.
I also linked to the bill, and pulled in the relevant sections. Have you actually read that, or are you parroting and peddling the shameless lies of those supporters who will vote for it but haven't read it either?
And what other misinformation am I spreading, that Porkulus is a massively expensive failure? That the administration's failed policy in regards to the banking system will continue to negatively affect the economy? That the lack of restraint on spending by the administration and the Congressional Democratic "leadership" will continue to negatively affect the economy? That Obama shamefully used demagoguery against Bush's national security policies, then continued them after he became President? These are facts. How in the world am I to trust the Dems in the administration and Congress on handling health care when all I've seen is consistent failure and a lack of serious thinking?
Enlightened Layperson:
Now that fact that the proposal to require coverage for end-life counseling originated with a Georgia Republican obviously does not prove that it is right...But the fact that it was introduced by a Republican is sort of a hint that it may not be a core principle for Democrats.
But Democrats were ready to put it into their bill. Now, I agree that this probably isn't a core principle for Democrats, and it probably isn't a core principle for all Republicans except maybe for Sen. Isakson.
The core principle for Democrats is that this bill requires everyone to have insurance and provides subsidies for people who cannot afford it.
That isn't how this was sold, as A.L. mentioned early in his post. It was sold as a way to reduce medical costs so that it wouldn't take up 16% of the GDP. Considering how the Obama administration and Congressional Democrats have handled the economy, everyone saw this as BS. Besides, you mentioned the core principle of the left wing of the Democratic Party, which includes the President and the entirety of the Democratic "leadership" in Congress:
There is a bitter intra-party dispute over whether offering a public option (that no one is required to accept, BTW) is also a core principle.
The public option, the elimination of private health insurance, is the core principle of this bill. This has been said by Barack Obama, Jan Schakowsky, Barney Frank, and now Adam Weiner on this morning's "Morning Joe". It's true that nobody is required to accept the public option, that is until the public option drives out those private options most Americans enjoy. And while "Coverage of end of life counseling" may not be a core principle of the Democratic Party, nonetheless it will be one that will be put in to control the costs after the single-payer system the Democratic left wing wants is implemented.
I heard a great argument about this end-of-life counseling. How much does it actually cost for this counseling? Whether it was introduced by a Republican or a Democrat, does it actually make sense for the government, taxpayers, to pick up the tab for this? Why have it in any bill at all?
for some nebulous gain
Only if he has direct deposit. Otherwise, I'm sure the paycheque is quite tangible.
A.L. said, "The GOP long ago abandoned math. In GOP land, 2 minus 2 equal 4. You can cut taxes and magically increase overall revenue. You can criticize the cost of this initiative, but at least the Democrats are grappling seriously with the question of how to pay for it (by reducing existing costs and raising taxes)."
This is just silly. It's not like we live in a historical socio-cultural vacuum. Cutting taxes on businesses means that the businesses have more money to invest in growth, they create more jobs, they stay in America, and they help the economy. We've SEEN this happen in this country. It's fact.
Raising individual taxes (either straightforwardly via federal income tax or backhandedly via cigarette and healthcare taxes and soda taxes, etc.) means that people have less money in their pocket. They have to pay their bills and their taxes, what is left over goes into the economy. If nothing is left over, the economy does not boom or grow. It collapses. This is not difficult to figure out.
When everything in the country is run by the federal government or so heavily taxed as to make it impossible for people to succeed economically, you have an entire country of either government workers or people living off of that government. Who pays then? This is also not unknown to us, we've seen this in a variety of socialist and communist experiments throughout the world, and it's always failed and failed miserably. Do you really think we can pull off something that is not illogical but proven to be a disaster that ultimately enslaves people? Come on! That's not bad math, that's bad thinking.
Do you really think we can pull off something that is not only* illogical but proven to be a disaster that ultimately enslaves people? Come on! That's not bad math, that's bad thinking.
Fuzzy Slippers said......Cutting taxes on businesses means that the businesses have more money to invest in growth, they create more jobs, they stay in America, and they help the economy. We've SEEN this happen in this country...
Perhaps that is what you have DREAMT, but what we have seen is that tax cuts lead to increased deficits and higher profits for businesses to pay to CEOs and shareholders as they move jobs overseas. The Bush tax cuts led to the slowest economic growth of any president's term since the war. The Republican's policy of deregulation and refusal to enforce laws caused the worst economic collapse since 1929.
We SAW the Clinton tax increas lead to 8 years of the best economic growth since the war.
Move to reality instead of living in your FoxNews fantasy world ideology.
Mike
Anonymous (3:51pm):
Perhaps that is what you have DREAMT, but what we have seen is that tax cuts lead to increased deficits and higher profits for businesses to pay to CEOs and shareholders as they move jobs overseas.
Why is it you leftists can't tell the whole story on anything? It wasn't tax cuts that led to increased deficits, but tax cuts on top of increased spending that led to increased deficits. With the Clinton tax increase and the good economy (that ended up being nothing more than a bubble), that was due to the real spending cuts that were put in by Republicans in Congress (which finally went through after, I believe, two Clinton vetoes). That so-called Republican deregulation was also signed by Democrat Clinton (and a majority of Democrats in Congress voted for it as well).
As far as jobs moving overseas, factors other than the tax cuts caused that.
The Bush tax cuts led to the slowest economic growth of any president's term since the war.
As usual, you can't tell the whole story. Unemployment was at its lowest under Bush, much lower than at any time during the Clinton administration. That's despite all those jobs that went overseas.
Now, it didn't help that the Bush tax cuts weren't followed by spending decreases instead of the huge spending increases that occurred. So what has Obama done? More of the same on steroids; Porkulus will pass out about $250 billion in welfare to all American workers (what leftists and Democrats call "tax cuts"), and a huge increase in spending, far larger than any other spending during any administration. And we're only 7 months into this administration.
Factcheck: In 1992, the DJIA was about 3000. When Clinton left office, it was 11000. When George Bush took office, it was 11000. when he left office, it was 9000.
Calling the Clinton gains a "bubble" seems to me to be a bit disingenuous...
Fuzzy Slippers said......Cutting taxes on businesses means that the businesses have more money to invest in growth, they create more jobs, they stay in America, and they help the economy. We've SEEN this happen in this country...
Perhaps that is what you have DREAMT, but what we have seen is that tax cuts lead to increased deficits and higher profits for businesses to pay to CEOs and shareholders as they move jobs overseas. The Bush tax cuts led to the slowest economic growth of any president's term since the war. The Republican's policy of deregulation and refusal to enforce laws caused the worst economic collapse since 1929.
We SAW the Clinton tax increas lead to 8 years of the best economic growth since the war.
Move to reality instead of living in your FoxNews fantasy world ideology.
Mike
Hiya Mike. Well, this may surprise you, but Fox News hasn't been around that long. I have (*sob*).
My ideology is not based in Fox News; it is often reflected there, yes, but then, they appeal to a large number of people who hold similar views. Just as whatever news outlet you watch didn't shape your views (or perhaps it did and that's why you assume the same of me? Hmmmm. If you're gobbling up the crap spewed in most television news, I can't even be angry. Just sad for you.).
As to your comments that support uncontrolled government spending and tax hikes on everything under the sun, Steve R responds well to those.
people like stevear and fuzzy slippers make me want to punch babies, mls is ok....
Anon said: "people like stevear and fuzzy slippers make me want to punch babies, mls is ok...."
That's funny to me on so many levels.
All right, SteveAR, suppose end of life counseling is removed from the bill (which at least the Senate Budget Committee has agreed to) and public option is dropped (which is under serious discussion). What would be your view on the bill in that case?
As to your comments that support uncontrolled government spending and tax hikes on everything under the sun, Steve R responds well to those.
So Steve is responding to things that nobody has ever said? Then he's losing it even worse than we thought.
A couple points regarding your drivel.
1)Companies don't hire people when they obtain more money. They hire people when they obtain more business. By your logic, Microsoft and Walmart would be hiring hundreds of thousands of more people. My own company has made a profit every year since i've worked there (going on 20 years), they've benefitted from your tax cuts, yet they've figured out they only need 2/3 the employees they had when i started.
2)Every liberal i know would like to pay less in taxes. Only when conservatives admit this will we be able to have a discussion on an adult level. However, there are things this country needs, and they need to be paid for. And since Bush single-handedly proved the fallacy of the Laffer Curve, government needs are not going to be paid for by cutting taxes. There's the responsible adult in the family, the liberal, and there's the irresponsible adult in the household, the conservative, who thinks everything will be paid for when we win the lotto.
Enlightened Layperson,
I'd dump the whole thing and start from scratch. Allow me to explain.
Secs. 122 through 124, and Secs. 141 & 142 sets up a new bureaucracy, all to set standards for health Insurance policies. This is already in place in every state; a federal standard on top of this will reduce competition.
Sec. 401 raises taxes if individuals choose not to insure. Raising taxes at this time is an economy-killer.
Secs. 411 & 412 have to do with employers providing health care insurance and the extra taxes for not providing any. This would have to be rewritten since there is no public option for companies that choose not to cover. Plus, it is an extra cost imposed that will be passed on to consumers, threatening the viability of an otherwise good business. In this economy, that's a terrible thing to do.
Other research and metrics are all over this bill, which do nothing but add to the cost of the whole bill.
My problem with this bill, especially if the public option were put in, is hardly adding competition; adding what is in effect a new insurance company (the federal government) amongst 1300 existing insurance companies is not enhancing competition, not when the one company can do things to keep up its revenue stream the others can't do, like forcibly raise taxes or print money. Then having them as an umpire at the same time is not logical.
In addition, the number of entities paying the medical bills will eventually constrict to the government and to those, as anyone who knows politics of the Chicago Way, who subsidize the campaign coffers of politicians who can affect change to regulations or policies.
The whole concept of "reform" being presented by Obama and the left isn't reform at all. And it won't do anything to cut costs unless rationing is imposed. Not to mention all the potential violations of liberties that will need to be imposed in order to keep costs under control.
So no, I don't see anything good with this bill, even without the public option or dropping the subsidies for end-of-life counseling.
SteveAR shows us the fundamental innumeracy behind the opposition to the public option: he thinks there are "1300 companies".
Here we have, for all practical purposes, two. A not-for-profit (one of the Blue Cross companies), and a for-profit.
In North Dakota, 90 percent of the market belongs to Blue Cross.
I heard Dorgan talking on NPR about his "co-op" idea. He actually touted as an example Land of Lakes! Sure, the dairy industry and the insurance industry are perfectly congruent -- what works for one should work for the other.
Based on what I've seen from comments here and elsewhere, I have to posit that a fundamental principle of the GOP is that you can fool some of the people all of the time.
SteveAR:
Hurray! At last we get to the real issue! Who knows. Maybe if you dropped the hysterical ranting about death panels, we might actually have a serious discussion about it!
"Here we have, for all practical purposes, two. A not-for-profit (one of the Blue Cross companies), and a for-profit.
In North Dakota, 90 percent of the market belongs to Blue Cross."
Thus C2H50H.
It should be noted that in much of the country, this is precisely the case. One or two insurers cover a vast number of people and one or two insurers cover a few people, and there is no true 'competitive market' at all. It's ridiculous to quote the number of insurers in the country as a whole and then to say 'one more option won't increase competition' as Steve does. In a market where there are two choices, a public option would mean three choices instead of two, a dramatic increase of 33.3333% more competition.
Steve's attempt to claim that a public option is intended to drive private insurance out of the market, and yet somehow won't increase competition is easily cut through: if the public option won't increase competition, how will it drive anyone out of the market? To successfully do that, they would have to lose out in /competition/ with the public option. The mere suggestion that a public option could drive private insurers out of the market is a concession to the idea of increased competition in the insurance market.
Of course, he tries to cover himself here...
"not when the one company can do things to keep up its revenue stream the others can't do, like forcibly raise taxes or print money. Then having them as an umpire at the same time is not logical."
And yet, UPS and FedEx stay in business despite the existence of the Postal Service, despite the fact that the Postal Service arguably offers a better product and service... and before one bashes the Post Office here, consider nasty nicknames like 'U(usually) P(oor) S(ervice)' and 'Federal Excess.' These nicknames were not bestowed because the companies are crackerjack models of customer service and fair pricing. Yet they successfully compete with a competitor that can 'forcibly raise taxes or print money.'
Of course, the Post Office can't do those things. Nor could a public health care option. Congress raises taxes (the President can't even do that) and the Fed prints money. This is the whole principle of 'federalism'... different portions of the government have specifically outlined areas and duties and those do not overlap, and frequently check each other.
Now one can argue, with some legitimacy, how well our system of federalism really stays 'federal.' But I think sane individuals have to agree that suggesting a public health insurance provider would have the power to raise taxes or print money is ignorant, just as it is ignorant to say that 'the government' is a monolithic entity with absolute power.
As half-assed as our federalism sometimes is, it still is somewhat federal.
eclecticradical:
And yet, UPS and FedEx stay in business despite the existence of the Postal Service, despite the fact that the Postal Service arguably offers a better product and service...
As usual, the left doesn't provide the whole story. Unlike every other federal agency, the USPS is funded only by revenues received by customers, not tax dollars funneled to it by Congress. Second, the USPS loses billions of dollars year after year. Their business model isn't one that should be emulated (and probably isn't followed by UPS or FedEx). If Congress took as much interest in the USPS as they do with setting up a single-payer health system (of which this bill is a first step towards it), then Congress would figure out a way to funnel money into it.
This is the whole principle of 'federalism'... different portions of the government have specifically outlined areas and duties and those do not overlap, and frequently check each other.
That is kinda/sorta/not the definition of federalism. There isn't "the government"; there is the federal government, state governments, county governments, city governments, etc. This kind of separation is what defines federalism.
Of course, the Post Office can't do those things. Nor could a public health care option...But I think sane individuals have to agree that suggesting a public health insurance provider would have the power to raise taxes or print money is ignorant, just as it is ignorant to say that 'the government' is a monolithic entity with absolute power.
I never said this, and it is false that you would attribute this to me or anyone else.
SteveAR:
"Second, the USPS loses billions of dollars year after year."
A blatant lie, and one which you have told multiple times even after being corrected, with proof. As you can easily find out from here, the USPS ran a profit for each year from 1991 to 2006.
Does this discussion really need more lies, SteveAR?
C2H50H:
In 2007, they lost nearly $2 billion. In 2008, they lost over $5 billion. After three quarters of this fiscal year, they've lost nearly $5 billion more. That's year after year. And add one more year to that. I ain't lyin'.
One other thing: the USPS has a monopoly on delivering first-class mail; neither UPS or FedEx (or any other carrier) is allowed to do this. So while UPS and FedEx do compete with the USPS on many things, the USPS has no competition on this. Based on information from this 2005 Business Week piece, half of the USPS revenue is dealing with first-class mail. Continuing reliance on this revenue stream for profitability is a bad business model to follow.
It doesn't mean I don't like the USPS; I do. But that doesn't mean I think it has a good business model to follow, especially since the major part of their business has no competition and they are still losing money.
SteveAR,
So, when you said earlier "the USPS loses billions of dollars year after year." -- you want us to understand that you meant "the USPS has lost billions of dollars the last couple of years."
The second statement is true (although there's mitigating circumstances).
The first is false, and defending it is hardly honest.
So the USPS has lost billions over the last few years. Not the first business to do that. Won't be the last. But maybe someone can explain to me how the USPS struggling to compete with private companies adds credence to the idea that private companies can't compete with public companies?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
C2H50H & Frankie,
You continue to ignore that the ever-shrinking main revenue stream of the USPS, first-class mail, is a state-imposed monopoly that can only be done by the USPS; it is illegal for UPS or FedEx to compete for this.
What that means is that neither UPS or FedEx compete with the USPS on the major business of the USPS. To continue to say that this is a fair competition between private and public sector entities is perpetuating a deliberate falsehood.
Just like the idea that the left wing Democrats in Congress and the administration will allow health insurance companies to compete fairly with a public (government) option they want to set up, even if it isn't done completely in this bill (it will be used as a step towards a single-payer system).
I await an answer from either of you on this.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Steve, it's pointless having this argument with you, but suffice it to say, you leave out a few rather important facts. For instance, no one is proposing to given the government a monopoly on health insurance (even most European countries don't do that), so you're analogy to the mail system is flawed (the package business is a much better analogy). Second, the primary reason the USPS is losing money is because use of the mail system is plummeting in the age of email and online billpaying. That has nothing to do with the public/private distinction. Finally, the reason the USPS was given a monopoly was because--otherwise--many people in the country would not have affordable mail service. If private companies could compete for mail service, they would (like the insurance companies) cherry-pick the cheap stuff. They would set up cheap city-to-city rates that would deprive the USPS of most of its revenue while leaving the rural/remote (and not profitable) areas to the USPS. That wouldn't be economically feasible and the result would be a system in which the only people who had affordable mail service were those who live in metropolitan areas.
A.L.,
Actually, the primary reason that the USPS didn't at least break even in 2007 and 2008 was, according to them, the Postal Act of 2006, which required them to place several billion dollars in escrow to pay for ... wait for it ... retiree health benefits. The long-term profitability of the USPS may be up for grabs, but my guess is that it will be managed.
Which really puts the inconsistency of the GOP on display for calling out the USPS for losing money to pay for retiree health care while trying to push GM, for example, through bankruptcy to eliminate their obligation under the union contracts to pay for retiree benefits ... for health care.
Obama's comments about how the USPS is "always losing money" were at best a misconstruction upon the facts. He really shouldn't try to compete with the GOP in oversimplification for the sake of making an argument. He can't hold a candle to the GOP masters of the art of BS, and the GOP's base is just going to find another lie, or flip their argument to use his words anyway.
A careless disregard for the truth means never having to admit being wrong.
A.L.,
I wasn't arguing that the USPS having a monopoly over first-class mail was bad or good, just that it exists; and I'm not arguing about the reasons for it that you mentioned. But because that monopoly exists, those here stating that UPS and FedEx compete equally with the USPS is false. Obviously they do compete fairly in the package delivery business, but there is no competition against the USPS for their primary revenue generator.
As far the government not wanting to monopolize health insurance, I disagree. The Democratic left wing in Congress and the administration clearly want this. I base this on the words they've used. They and others can claim their comments have been taken out of context, but that isn't true. While this bill may not put us into some sort of government monopoly on who pays for health care, it clearly is a stepping stone to it. And if Democrats retain or expand their majorities over the next eight years, and Obama wins re-election 2012, it will happen.
SteveAR,
Actually, first class mail is, for the USPS, at best a break-even affair. They have to have a full-time worker even if there's only one item to deliver per block. This should be obvious to anyone. And rural delivery is even worse. If you have facts (as opposed to your usual fact-free assertions), please present them. Be warned that if they're the usual BS from such propaganda outlets as AEI, they'll just get you more derision.
UPS and Fedex have no interest in that market -- not at current prices, at any rate -- as is evident from their total lack of lobbying to open it to competition.
Your assertion that Democrats in Washington really want to nationalize health care appears to be based on the voices in your head, because, although you claim to base it on what Democrats have said, every time you present any actual statements, they contradict your assertions.
This is not meant to stand up for the Democrats in Washington. What too many of them are primarily interested in is re-election, keeping the corporate money flowing into their (as opposed to the GOP) coffers, and reaping the rewards of holding office. But elimination of private insurance is not one of their goals, as a group.
C2H50H:
Your assertion that Democrats in Washington really want to nationalize health care appears to be based on the voices in your head, because, although you claim to base it on what Democrats have said, every time you present any actual statements, they contradict your assertions.
[snip]
...elimination of private insurance is not one of their goals, as a group.
They do want a single-payer system where all private sector businesses doing so now would not be able to in the future, thus eliminating any private firm engaging in the health insurance business. There is already plenty of video showing it. That might not be nationalization of the entire health care system, but it does nationalize who pays for it.
As far as the part of your comment regarding the USPS, my assertions were just fine. Their first-class mail operation is a government-imposed monopoly (I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that it is a fact) and that operation has been the USPS's main revenue generator. Everything you mentioned had nothing to do with anything I said, but everything to do with what you want people to think I said.
SteveAR,
You said: "They do want a single-payer system..."
Without a link to some authoritative source giving their quotes, I'm going to have to assign the same truth value to this statement as I did to your previous -- and still unproven -- assertions.
Also, explain why, if that is so, none of the committees have bill proposals with such a provision.
In re: the USPS, you really don't understand business economics, do you? Whether the majority of the revenue for the USPS comes from the first-class mail operations of the USPS is meaningless without an understanding of the cost of that operation. Without a demonstration that the cost of first-class mail delivery is low compared with its income, your comments are idiotic.
If you would look for facts to back up your assertions, you might eventually learn that they're baseless and your efforts here might be of some value.
If you reply with more assertions based on the voices in your head, please don't imagine they'll be convincing.
C2H50H:
Without a link to some authoritative source giving their quotes, I'm going to have to assign the same truth value to this statement as I did to your previous -- and still unproven -- assertions.
I did already, in A.L.'s previous post.
As far as the USPS is concerned, the point was that neither UPS or FedEx can compete with in the one operation that the USPS makes its primary revenue stream due to a government-imposed monopoly. Whether the two private companies should be allowed to compete for this is immaterial and not germane to the conversation. The two companies can and do compete with the USPS on package delivery and other things, which is a good thing; it provides choice.
What left wing Democrats want to do is set up a monopoly on how health care is paid, the government. It won't be run as the USPS is run; tax money and borrowed money from the Federal Reserve (which itself will be borrowed from somewhere else, probably China, and/or printed by Treasury to cover any loan) will be shoveled into it and regulatory changes will be made to make it work, regardless of how good or bad it is (and I have no confidence that it will be good, based on the performance of programs that have come from these same people over the last seven months).
This monopoly won't happen in this bill, but if Democrats retain a large enough majority in Congress and Obama gets re-elected, this bill will be used as a stepping stone to make single-payer happen.
SteveAR,
No, you provided no significant evidence.
A youtube video of one informal political event, where Obama said something that can be construed as supporting single payer, and a statement by Barney Frank is not, in any sane universe, evidence that "the Democrats" want a single payer scheme.
As for the rest of your delusions, thanks for sharing. I find paranoia fascinating.
And if Democrats retain or expand their majorities over the next eight years, and Obama wins re-election 2012, it will happen.
Geez, one minute you're arguing they can't even sell a public option, and the next minute you're arguing they'll be taking over the entire industry.
I won't deny that there are some Democrats who think a single payer would be the best option. But there are Republicans who think doing nothing except entirely doing away with Medicare would be a best option. Doesn't mean either one will ever happen - unless there's a mega-major groundswell of support for either one. And if there's enough of a groundswell to make it happen, then it SHOULD happen. So there's no reason to fear either one.
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