We put cellophane or cloth over their mouths; we're not animals
Over at the The Corner, Mark Hemingway takes issue with Paul Begala's assertion that we've prosecuted Japanese soldiers for doing the very same thing (waterboarding) that the Bush Administration did 183 times to a single detainee:
Good lord. What the hell has happened to American conservatism? Yesterday one of Bush's top speech writers wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post rationalizing torture of Muslim terrorist suspects as a way of helping them reach spiritual liberation. On the same day, the editor-in-chief of the National Review, the nation's top conservative magazine, published an editorial about the torture memos claiming that: "Rightly considered, the memos should be a source of pride."
That's what the Republican party has allowed itself to become, a party of torture apologists. This is the kind of "analysis" that used to spill forth from the politburos of our communist enemies. It's really rather shocking to me that there aren't more conservatives out there who are embarrassed by this, that movement conservatives are so invested in protecting the reputation of the Bush administration that they're willing to sign their names to this kind of morally bankrupt rationalization. It's beyond sad.
Asano practiced a much more severe form of waterboarding, according to the Post:Yeah, U.S. style waterboarding is way more civilized. We use cellophane or cloth, so it's completely unfair to compare the two techniques. If Asano had just used cellophane, like a civilized person, those charges definitely would have been dropped.Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.In waterboarding as it is practiced by the U.S., cellophane or cloth is placed over the subject's mouth to keep water out of nose and mouth. Asano was pouring water directly into the mouths and noses of subjects which is considerably more harsh and dangerous.
Good lord. What the hell has happened to American conservatism? Yesterday one of Bush's top speech writers wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post rationalizing torture of Muslim terrorist suspects as a way of helping them reach spiritual liberation. On the same day, the editor-in-chief of the National Review, the nation's top conservative magazine, published an editorial about the torture memos claiming that: "Rightly considered, the memos should be a source of pride."
That's what the Republican party has allowed itself to become, a party of torture apologists. This is the kind of "analysis" that used to spill forth from the politburos of our communist enemies. It's really rather shocking to me that there aren't more conservatives out there who are embarrassed by this, that movement conservatives are so invested in protecting the reputation of the Bush administration that they're willing to sign their names to this kind of morally bankrupt rationalization. It's beyond sad.
posted by A.L. at 4:44 PM
18 Comments:
Thus far, torture as official American policy has been confined to a single period: the 8 years of George W. Bush. It would be disastrous if the Obama Administration holds back from the most thorough investigations possible. Prosecutions may be another story; I would love to see people in the Bush Administration prosecuted for torture. But I think it is even more important to investigate, and get tons of facts out into the open. Otherwise, if Obama in any way compromises on torture, American torture suddenly goes beyond one miserable Republican presidency, and becomes (to some extent) bipartisan. This would negate more than 200 years of honorable American conduct.
This is where 'conservatism' has ended up: an advocacy of national security policies entirely destructive to the individual liberties conservatives claim to wish to protect. It is only fair to note that there are at least four conservative Republicans on the record as opposed to torture, however: Senator John McCain of Arizona and Congressman Ron Paul of Texas, Senator McCain's sidekick Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, and former Senator Chuck Hegel of Nebraska.
don't forget, al, when the talk of torture first came out the rightys defended the policies by stating that torture for information "worked for the nazis".
"Thus far, torture as official American policy has been confined to a single period: the 8 years of George W. Bush."
Well...not exactly.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-vietnam20aug20-sg,0,7940522.storygallery
What Cheney called the "dark side" runs deep in the human psyche. America is no exception. That's why this is such an important matter. Eternal vigilance being the price of liberty, and all that.
This is something that has really set me back on my heals, also. I thought the idea, "torture is bad", was a settled issue. Turns out, lots of people like to parrot those words but when you scratch a conservative, not so much. Blew me away - family members, nice little old ladies I know... we disagreed on politics, I knew that, but torture? I still haven't adjusted.
Adding to the fact that Asano is an idiot is the fact that he is just plain wrong. He says that "cloth is placed over the subject's mouth to keep water out of nose and mouth." He must wear that new kind of cloth that blocks water from getting through. Has he even watched any of the videos of reporters who volunteered to be waterboarded? The whole points of the cloth is that it disorients you and keeps you in the dark while the water is filling up your nose and mouth. Cloth does not stop water.
Where is SteveIL's comment? I look forward to his intelligently written apologist screeds.
yeah, a wet cloth over the mouth is so humane...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJZ3xEkDaSs
"Thus far, torture as official American policy has been confined to a single period: the 8 years of George W. Bush."
Yeah, and don't lets even talk about the war we fought in the Phillipines around the turn of the 20th century. This is far from unprecedented in our history. Which is irrelevant morally and legally.
Here is a link to someone who tried waterboarding himself, including the cellophane method...
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717
Now, those of you who know me will know that I am both enamored of my own toughness and prone to hyperbole. The former, I feel that I am justifiably proud of. The latter may be a truth in many cases, but this is the simple fact:
It took me ten minutes to recover my senses once I tried this. I was shuddering in a corner, convinced I narrowly escaped killing myself.
Here's what happened:
The water fills the hole in the saran wrap so that there is either water or vaccum in your mouth. The water pours into your sinuses and throat. You struggle to expel water periodically by building enough pressure in your lungs. With the saran wrap though each time I expelled water, I was able to draw in less air. Finally the lungs can no longer expel water and you begin to draw it up into your respiratory tract.
It seems that there is a point that is hardwired in us. When we draw water into our respiratory tract to this point we are no longer in control. All hell breaks loose. Instinct tells us we are dying.
I have never been more panicked in my whole life. Once your lungs are empty and collapsed and they start to draw fluid it is simply all over. You [b]know[b] you are dead and it's too late. Involuntary and total panic.
There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It would be like telling you not to blink while I stuck a hot needle in your eye.
At the time my lungs emptied and I began to draw water, I would have sold my children to escape. There was no choice, or chance, and willpower was not involved.
I never felt anything like it, and this was self-inflicted with a watering can, where I was in total control and never in any danger.
And I understood.
Waterboarding gets you to the point where you draw water up your respiratory tract triggering the drowning reflex. Once that happens, it's all over. No question.
Some may go easy without a rag, some may need a rag, some may need saran wrap.
Once you are there it's all over.
I didn't allow anybody else to try it on me. Inconceivable. I know I only got the barest taste of what it's about since I was in control, and not restrained and controlling the flow of water.
But there's no chance. No chance at all.
So, is it torture?
I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.
It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything.
The Spanish Inquisition knew this. It was one of their favorite methods.
It's torture. No question. Terrible terrible torture. To experience it and understand it and then do it to another human being is to leave the realm of sanity and humanity forever. No question in my mind.
Well, there are a few Republicans...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCWN9UWtWkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEtFMj6ZiHM
#2 was particularly interesting.
Via Salon "War Room".
The Vietnam examples to which Tom points were excesses committed by soldiers in the field, not official policy implemented by staff safe in a prison camp. That doesn't excuse such acts. The US expects even soldiers in the heat of battle to maintain standards of treatment against enemies. When those came to light, the Pentagon investigated the soldiers responsible, sometimes resulting in criminal penalties.
Why don't you respond to the substance of the Hemingway post, which was that Begala was lying (what a shock)? Easier for a content-free cheap shot. Figures Sullivan would link to you.
So, what's your point? Water get's in a guy's nose and mouth and the tough guy (CD) wimped out? Anything CelticDragon came up with sounds better than being tortured by the fact of being 100+ stories in the air and having to decide either to jump to your death or be burned alive in the fire blocking your escape. Oh wait! There was only 37 Americans that decided to jump. The others burned up.
Yes. We bombed entire cities and allied with one of the worst governments in the history of the world. How civilized the war was.
...Idiots.
Sir,
As far as I can tell, you've almost-but-not-quite misquoted Mr. Hemingway. The cited portion is accurate, but does not support your thesis when quoted in full. The VERY NEXT sentence states, "I don't think that any of this settles the debate over whether waterboarding as it was practiced by the CIA is or is not torture, but Begala certainly doesn't know what he's talking about".
Mr. Hemingway is very, very clearly not saying that what the CIA did was "not torture". The plain language is clear, but it doesn't help you snipe at a conservative.
You write, "Good lord. What the hell has happened to American conservatism?". Maybe what's happened is you're starting to believe your own side's smears?
It doesn't help anyone when you add to the confusion. Please issue a correction and an apology.
Respectfully,
P. Caldwell
Anonymous at 2:46 said... Why don't you respond to the substance of the Hemingway post, which was that Begala was lying (what a shock)? Easier for a content-free cheap shot. Figures Sullivan would link to you.
OH! A swing and a BIG miss for the right-wing apologist. Looks like Begala was right, and has the sources to back his statement.
There are several forms of "water torture," and "waterboarding" as it's often called has some variations, but each and every form of it is torture and illegal. There is no serious debate on this, and never has been, among experts. The "debate" has only sprung up as pundits, officials and authoritarians have tried to excuse the Bush administration. As repugnant as some apologist arguments have been over the past several years, this past week has seen a new level of evil apologia, all the better to match the crimes. There are plenty of conservatives who are vocally opposing this as well, but not many among the national GOP, conservative pundits and the base. It's pathetic but predictable that the media would largely misrepresent fundamental issues of justice and disclosure as a mostly partisan issue – but then, they can be "balanced" versus accurate. I liked movement conservatives better when they just despised the poor and didn't also cheer on torture.
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