Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Why Do So Many Smart People Insist on Ignoring Clinton's Obvious Deficiencies as a General Election Candidate?

Count me with Hilzoy in seconding this sentiment from Jonathan Chait:

In the Washington Post yesterday, Paul Starr argued that it's really difficult to determine whether Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama would fare better in a general election. Ezra Klein made the same point, as did Kevin Drum. I find this maddening.

Look, it's obviously true that any guess about general election viability is speculative. You're predicting a future event, and you could be wrong. I think the New England Patriots would have a better chance of beating the New York Giants than would the Detroit Lions, but I can't be sure.

That said, the available data here is not very ambiguous. Hillary Clinton is a highly unpopular figure. In the last Gallup survey, 50% of respondents have a favorable view of her, and 46% negative. Sometimes her averages goes higher, but sometimes it veers into negative territory. Obama has very high ratings. In the most recent poll, 59% view him favorably, 32% negatively. The difference between plus 4 and plus 27 is enormous--a Detroit Lions v. New England Patriots-size gap.

On top of that, independents who vote in the primaries and caucuses have shown a very strong preference for Obama over Clinton. That is the closest available approximation of a swing voter. (Some Clinton supporters have pointed to her strength among lower-income Democrats in the primary, but a low-income Democratic primary voter is not the same thing as a working class swing voter.)

In 2000, Clinton ran five points behind Al Gore in the state of New York, and it's not like Gore was the most popular politician who ever lived. That's who she is--a figure who is disliked by pretty much everybody who isn't a sure-fire Democrat, and even some people who are. You can imagine Obama running a horrible general election campaign and becoming less popular. No doubt his favorable ratings would drop a bit in the face of Republican attacks, as would hers. But for him to become as unpopular as Clinton already is--without months of nation-side attack ads--is a worst-case scenario.

It's entirely possible Clinton could win if given a favorable environment and/or a sufficiently weak opponent. (Whether she could bring along as many Democratic Senators and Representatives is more doubtful, which is why so many red state Democrats are endorsing Obama.) And I'm not saying electability has to be a first-order consideration--if you think Clinton would be a much better president than Obama and are willing to accept a higher risk of a Republican winning, then go for it.

That so many Democrats think this question is complicated suggests to me that maybe people aren't good at assessing the popularity of their co-partisans. To Democrats, it's perfectly obvious that the strongest Republican nominee is John McCain. He polls very highly, everybody knows Democrats and Independents who like him, and so on. But Republicans are constantly debating this. You see Republicans spinning horror scenarios of a McCain nomination leading to a splintering base or depressed turnout. To Democrats it's bewildering that they even debate this. Lots of Republicans feel the same way about the Clinton/Obama electability debate.

I couldn't agree more. As Chait points out, it is impossible to predict the future. But that doesn't change the fact that every relevant metric suggests that Barack Obama would be a far superior general election candidate than Hillary Clinton, and it is indeed maddening that so many smart people cannot seem to see this.

Consider this:

1) In every contest that's been held so far, Obama has done much better than Clinton among independent and Republican voters, a strong indication that he has more cross-over appeal.

2) Obama has MUCH better favorable/unfavorable ratings than Clinton.

3) Democratic members of Congress from red states and red districts are overwhelmingly choosing to endorse Obama over Clinton and are arguing that he will do better than Clinton in their states/districts.

4) Obama is a fresh-face who many Americans have not yet formed an opinion of and are willing to give a chance. By contrast, virtually every American has long ago formed an opinion of Hillary Clinton and--whether fair or not--for many that opinion is negative. Many otherwise persuadable folk will simply tune her out. If you doubt this, ask any disgruntled Republican you know whether he/she would ever consider voting for Hillary. Ask the same about Obama. Notice the different reaction.

5) Obama is--by leaps and bounds--a better orator and a more charismatic and likable figure than Clinton. Close you eyes and imagine them each delivering their keynote address at the Democratic Convention. Who do you imagine would be better able to inspire the electorate and win new converts to the progressive cause?

6) Obama has done much better than Clinton at attracting new people into the political process. Which candidate do you think will do a better job increasing Democratic turnout in November?

7) Obama matches up much better against John McCain than Hillary does. McCain is beloved by the media. Clinton is despised. But the media likes Obama and would root for his historical candidacy to succeed. Furthermore, Obama provides a much better contrast with McCain on foreign policy. If Clinton is the nominee, it will be 2004 all over again with Clinton constantly being accused of flip-floppery on the war and being forced to explain her initial vote for it. If Obama is the nominee, he can present a much clearer and more consistent critique of the war and McCain's foreign policy generally. Obama's youth and vitality will also contrast well with McCain's age.

8) Obama matches up much better against Mitt Romney than Hillary does. Romney's biggest liability is his perception as a phony, calculating, say-anything-to-get-elected politician. Clinton--whether fair or not--is perceived similarly. Obama does not have that reputation and would be able to contrast himself well in a race against Romney.

I could go on and on, but hopefully I've made the point. Obviously these are all secondary considerations if you happen to think Clinton would be a better president than Obama. But I really don't understand how anyone can think, based on existing data and knowledge of our political system, that Hillary Clinton is the stronger general election candidate. I think the people who have convinced themselves that the electability question is a close one are badly over-analyzing the situation. It's an Emperor Has No Clothes type of situation. You just need to see the obvious and ignore what people are saying.

If you harbor any doubts about this, please go talk to the people you know who are not diehard Democrats, people who are Republicans or independents. Ask them what they think about Clinton and Obama. If you have any partisan Republican acquaintances, ask them who they are more afraid of facing in the general election. If you still have doubts, read this.

Again, I hate to sound like a broken record on this issue, but I just can't shake my fear that if we nominate Hillary this time around, we'll be throwing away a once in a lifetime opportunity to advance the progressive agenda in this country. I'm convinced that the best case scenario for a Hillary candidacy is a narrow victory that results in very little actual change (and likely galvanizes a Republican resurgence). Obama is the most talented and charismatic Democratic politician to come along in a long time. He has the potential to seize this unique opportunity and really change the political landscape in a fundamental way. It would be a shame to not even give him the chance.
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25 Comments:

Blogger BERT CONVY said...

*

"A Progressive Agenda"... ah yes, lets have more Ruth Bader Ginzburgs so the democrats can really fubar the supreme court.

Lets have more progressive welfare ghettos and lets progressively kill more of the unborn... yes those are really something progressive to be holding your collective democrat breaths for.

*bert convy

*

1:55 AM  
Blogger TheRadicalModerate said...

A.L., I think you've left out one factor that militates toward Clinton being successful. If McCain really is the GOP nominee (which is no better than 50-50 at this point), then he'd have to be willing to slime Clinton with the GOP's 8 years of lovingly collected opposition research. Now, I'm not a huge McCain fan but I will concede that the man has more integrity than the rest of the GOP field put together. He's uncomfortable sliming his opponents. When McCain's uncomfortable, he comes across as vaguely creepy.

Hillary, on the other hand, has no compunctions in the slime department. She'll make mincemeat of McCain and the more he tries to fight back, the worse he'll look.

Having said that, although I went through a brief period of thinking that Clinton's smarts and savvy were enough to make her a good President, she's done an awfully good job of reminding us why we were all so tired of the Clintons by 2000. The last straw was her NYT interview on the economy. For those of us who think that largely market-based solutions with a modest amount of regulation work better than tinkering with things you don't really understand, she's much scarier than Bill was.

9:05 AM  
OpenID mainsailset said...

Rachel Maddow this morning commenting on how the machine is in play to hit every email box with the smear that Obama is a Muslim, won't pledge allegance, etc etc.

Her point was that these falsehoods are beginning to stick-that they take Obama off message, curry the hatred that is already in play with Hillary and similarly draw a label up for him that is someone to hate, distrust and certainly not vote for.

She point blank said Obama has to figure out where this is coming from and demonize the source, NOW.

Is all this Republican 'levelling'? Because they literally don't have anything to run on, will the strategy be to demonize the Dem front runners to make the election seem awash in dirty politics all round?

10:42 AM  
OpenID mainsailset said...

Probably should have given a link for a specific experience we're seeing here in WA state. Direct from local Rep chairwoman no less...

http://www.horsesass.org/?p=4167#comments

11:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

It's nice to see Mr. Chait be used as a reference after he made a total fucking disgrace of himself in NH.

Don't predict the future? It took the Ivy asshole 43 years to learn that and now I'm supposed to listen to him?

Y'all just put away everything in your heads, pleasse, except for this one variable: the tweety effect may in fact be irreversible, the narrative may be set in stone, the whole fucking country was watching and talked about it, 10% of the female population that never would have voted will now permanently skew the election to Hillary.

Because of this total fucking idiot Chait and his ilk. Obama could be royally fucked to oblivion, for no matter how rationally Hillary is attacked from now on the perception is set in stone its sexist.

I learned forty years ago not to ne so stupid as to predict the future, but if Hillary wins simply because of media backlash I'll be laughing for years.

Hillary is a terrible liberal. So what? **laughs** Hey Ivy Chait, you hear me? Fuck you. Fuck you and your sick jackal media pack, if Hillary wins I hope you choke on it for the rest of your lives. You deserve so much worse, you sickening scumbags.

[this is paradox from The Left Coaster and I'm barfed in this assinine comment system. Some day idiots are going to be fired who manage web projects, journalists will be fired for being wrong and peace, holy peace will reign in all souls]

12:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paradox-How did The Left Coaster become a Hillary propaganda organ?

4:44 PM  
Blogger paradox said...

Don't look at me, man. People make their own choices in life.

Steve made his, eriposte made his, and in fairness Soto brought in Dinelli, who has has simply been superb, fantastic. There have been other campaign partisans writing there.

[shrugs] Three powerful voices. What the fuck do I have to do with it? Nuthin'.

We take what the world gives us and do the best we can. We shall see what happens.

5:21 PM  
Blogger Transgrade said...

You guys have got to get off the polls...those polls are driving you crazy.

Personally, I always refuse polls, and I recommend that everyone should do the same. Vote, by all means vote, just don't answer the darned polls. Preserve the privacy.

It's the only way to unhorse these pundits who insist on reducing an election to a series of polls.

5:18 AM  
Anonymous Karey said...

Why do people still think Clinton could be a better opponent than Obama in the general election despite current popularity polls? Because the general election will have a year to swift-boat the winner half to death and you have to consider who will stand up to that more. As well liked as Obama is I see him being Kerry all over again and Hillary is nothing similar. The overarching problem with the democratic party is spineless subservience and an unwillingness to fight back against easy arguments to win. Al Gore let me down, Kerry let me down, I'm not looking forward to watching yet another democrat go down in the face of an easy fight. Hillary is contentious, she fights with everybody, but thats exactly the antidote to the party's major personality problems that it needs. The old strategy isn't working, hence we've had Bush for 8 years.

Alos McCain's campaign is likely to be based all about security and military issues, and I've been under the impression Hillary is more respected even by conservatives on those particular issues, than Obama would be.

9:57 AM  
Blogger Alley Cat said...

I appreciate the points you have made which seem to support an Obama candidacy over Hillary in a general election. If he ultimately becomes the Democratic presidential candidate, I will vote for him. However, I have always harbored some degree of trepidation about polling results. We were recently surprised, were we not, on January 8, in the "Counting Your Chickens" post here, right? But I am not being sarcastic with you AL, just a gentle nudge. I see many things in much the same light as you.

I think back to the prior two presidential elections. (1) Gore - I think the consensus analysis was that he suffered a close loss because he distanced himself from Clinton and failed to capitalize on his popularity among the electorate. Sure, he had his detractors but had Clinton been used it might have provided the slight advantage needed to win. A stacked Supreme Court decision in Florida was the fatal blow. (2) Kerry - Another close contest. Kerry clearly beat Bush in the debates. Bush looked as dumb as I actually think he is. Republicans beat Democrats with a simple message, "You do not want to change presidents in the middle of a conflict." Advantage Bush. After a close race in Ohio it was over.

Both former Democratic candidates had one commonality, however....they were gentlemen who seemed to lack fire and combativeness in their speeches. They took the high road and seemed to shirk away from a fight as if that were beneath them, as if they didn't want to offend someone, afraid to take a firm stand on some principle. Republican candidates, on the other hand, don't have such reservations. They present a tough, don't screw with me attitude that seems to resonate with many voters. Unfortunate, but what can I say?

Finally, my point. Obama as a candidate seems to behave like a Kerry or Gore with respect to toughness, spunk and an ability to fight like a barnyard dog when necessary. Both Gore and Kerry would have, without question, been better presidents than Bush, but they lost. Close in both cases, but losers in the end. Democrats need someone who will bite back. And that is where Hillary pulls well away from Obama. She will not let herself be savaged by Republicans and not fight back vigorously like both Gore and Kerry did. Obama is getting a mild dose of that right now. This lack of fighting spirit, I think, leads people to believe that this is how the Democratic candidate will behave as president when a possible military action may be necessary. In short, I believe this was the fatal flaw in both prior Democratic candidates and one that Obama shares. It is the one trait (toughness, a willingness to act militarily if necessary) that Republicans currently like to call their own. Democrats need to have a candidate that will take that advantage away and Hillary is that candidate.

Analysis of numbers is nice but the numbers do not always translate into the result anticipated. These primaries are but a small representation of what MIGHT happen in the full election. Many of these political commentators turn out to be wrong...check Glenn Greenwald's commentaries about that. An unanticipated event could occur before the November elections as well. Suppose we had another terrorist action in this country before the elections but after the Democratic and Republican presidential candidates had been determined. Who would you want running for president as the Democratic candidate, Obama or Hillary? I personally would prefer Hillary in that case. The Republicans would likely win if Obama were the opposing candidate. The inexperience issue would sink him.

So, in spite of the reams of analysis, I believe Hillary has the essentail ingredients necessary to pull off a victory in a presidential contest. She has a well developed and well run organization, a deep understanding of the issues facing the country, and a formibable defensive and offensive ability ( a critical necessity). She has weaknesses certainly, but look at the potential Republican adversaries who have significant baggage of their own that Hillary can exploit. And you can rest assured, she will. Republicans will not get a free ride in the next election if they are running against her as they did with Kerry and Gore. Republicans should buckle up, they will have their hands full with Hillary.

12:23 PM  
Blogger Liberal White Boy said...

Yes maybe she could get elected but what will Israel extort from her once our President? Bill's phone sex tapes with Monika(remember Ken Star's report about Monika being bugged at the Watergate by a foreign country...Israel)could cost us a fortune. War with Iran, a few billion more added to their welfare check each year. The possibilities for treachery are endless. I don't know why we're so worried about our own country spying on us, Mossad though their Israeli phone companies have been doing it for years. Amdocs etc..etc.... Hillary is a damn security risk.

2:31 PM  
Blogger Michael said...

Well, I'm a reliably liberal voter (Dukakis, B. Clinton, Nader, Kerry), but I can tell you, I will crawl over broken glass to vote against Hillary Rodham Clinton, especially if McCain is the Republican nominee. I don't want a Democrat who will eke out a Karl Rove style, 50% + 1 majority by scratching, clawing, and crying her way to victory. I want a president with a clear mandate, who can begin to repair the bitter divisions of the past 15 years. Only then will there be room for any legislative accomplishments.

And frankly, the Democratic Party doesn't deserve to win the presidency in November. What do they have to show for themselves since winning Congress in 2006? Harry Reid's capitulation on warrantless wiretapping and telecom immunity is as disgusting a spectacle as I've ever seen. They call this "oversight"? Why should I vote for a party that needs to control every branch of government before it displays an ounce of courage?

Obama has an extremely bright future ahead of him. He needs to build his resume, maybe become governor of his state, and learn a little better how to fight back, but I'm confident that he'll be president one day. Perhaps by then the Democratic Party and its idiotic primary voters will be worthy of such an outstanding candidate.

3:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is whistling past the graveyard. It is also a matter of being constitutionally unable to accept that they make mistakes.

4:34 PM  
Blogger Alley Cat said...

The New York Times has weighed in on this issue tonight:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/25/opinion/25fri1.html

They gave Hillary the nod along with McCain on the Republican side.

11:47 PM  
Blogger Hume's Ghost said...

What gets me is why so few people seem to be bothered by a father-son trading the presidency with a husband-wife of the opposite party.

It seems highly indicative, to me as least, of the rot of American meritocracy.

1:03 PM  
Blogger C2H50H said...

Yes, one of the primary problems I have with Hillary Clinton, and that I had with George W. Bush, is the reek of nepotism.

I think it illustrates the intellectual and spiritual bankruptcy of the leadership of both parties. They haven't got any real leadership, so they substitute for it the appearance of leadership by running people closely associated with past leaders.

It's pathetic.

2:45 PM  
Anonymous john said...

I haven't had the chance to talk to too many Republicans about Obama vs. Clinton, but early last fall I remember a Republican neighbor commenting that they couldn't believe the Democrats would nominate a Muslim. Of course I pointed out that he is a Christian, but he didn't seem like he was very willing to be persuaded.

And another working class Republican example came in the form of "What's his name again? Osama what? Osama Hussein?"

I know its remarkable but these people can find their way to the voting booth.

3:29 PM  
Anonymous neutral said...

I'm sure all here are aware of the group that recently announced it is going to spend $8.5 million to sully W's legacy, so that he doesn't have some sort of popular resurrection and become a rallying point a la Reagan. (Not to worry, guys--save your $8.5 mil and piss it away on beer.) Because W is not a candidate for any office, the ad campaign would not be subject to any strictures of the campaign laws.

My thought is that two can play this game. My dream is that a Boone Pickens, or a Richard Mellon Scaife, finance an ad campaign to the tune of tens of millions of dollars to remind the country of what it is like to have Bill Clinton in the White House. I can see it now--the lies, the sexual assaults, the finger-wagging, Kathleen Willey, Gennifer Flowers ("deny, deny, deny"), Juanita Broaddrick ("put some ice on it"), the draft-dodging, the "loathing" of the military--all of it reprised for the benifit of those who may have forgotten, and for those now of voting age who were too young to remember. Just attack the bejeezus out of the lying bastard, and McCain would be powerless to stop it even if he wanted to.

Just a thought...

10:21 PM  
Anonymous neutral said...

John, I've been a Republican since 1964, and as I have said here on a number of occasions, I find Obama an admirable and inspirational young man.

You need to come to grips with the fact that he's not going to be the nominee. This vicious, unprincipled and utterly amoral couple are going to see to that, and they don't care whom they have to trample to get their way. A number of Democrats seem to be slowly recalling how it was that the Clinton years were quite good for the Clintons, but disastrous for the Democratic party. But it is that party that is going to nominate her as their candidate. Nothing at all you can do about it.

10:26 PM  
Anonymous neutral said...

Twenty-four hours, and no one has posted here since my last one--what's going on?

Does anyone doubt, in light of tonight's results, that the black community has no affinity whatsoever toward Hillary Clinton? If it's true that it has no such affinity, what does that portend for November? Can Bill Clinton, after his wife sews up the nomination, go on the road with all the usual lickspittles--Charlie Rangel, Andy Young and all the regularly placated supplicants--and persuade blacks across America that Hillary is really their friend? Do you think your average black dude admires Hillary more than John McCain? Inquring Fascist Hyena minds want to know...

9:32 PM  
Blogger priscianus jr said...

Mainsailset at 10:42 a.m. wrote:

"She [Rachel Maddow] point blank said Obama has to figure out where this [rumor that Obama is a Muslim] is coming from and demonize the source, NOW.

Perhaps this can get him started:
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/12/author_of_obama_muslim_smear_piece_is_giuliani_adviser.php

12:53 AM  
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nicepost

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