Freddoso Responds
I somehow missed this earlier today, but David Freddoso at The Corner has responded to my critique of his post from yesterday. In response to my rather obvious point--that the Danish labor shortage is a result of the tax rate differential between Denmark and neighboring E.U. countries, not Denmark's tax rate in and of itself--Freddoso writes:
Freddoso claims that I am ignoring the "reality" represented by this singularly insightful anecdote and suggests that my head would hurt if I tried to "digest the idea that incentives matter in economics." Okay, David, you win. Let's talk about incentives.
Central to supply-side orthodoxy is the notion that all (or least most) people respond to tax cuts in a similar way. Essentially everyone is the Dane quoted in the article. When taxes are high, they lack incentive to work hard. When taxes are lowered, they get to keep more of their income and respond by becoming more productive, innovative, entrepreneurial, etc.
I fully concede that some people are likely to respond to tax cuts in this way. But the equation is infinitely more complex than supply-siders would have us believe. First, the nature of the tax cut obviously matters. A cut from 90% to 30% is much more likely to affect incentives to work than a cut from, say, 33% to 28%.
Moreover, conservatives never seem to consider the fact that tax money is used to provide services which many people genuinely value. Though Denmark has high taxes, it also provides, among other things, universal health care and education, excellent public services, and state of the art infrastructure. Not everyone thinks that the portion of their income that goes to the government isn't worth working for. Denmark is a democracy, after all. It wouldn't have such high taxes if people didn't want it that way. And it's probably also worth noting that, despite its high taxes, the Danish economy does pretty well; it was recently voted the "most competitive and dynamic" economy in Europe by the World Economic Forum.
What supply-siders can't seem to internalize is that people respond to incentives differently. For instance, while some people may be incentivized to work harder by a tax cut (because they can keep more of what they generate), others might well be incentivized to work less, because they can now maintain the same standard of living while working less hours. It depends on whether you prioritize money or leisure.
Which brings me to another major problem with the supply-side narrative: many people--perhaps most--are not compensated for their labor in a way that is directly tied to their productivity or effort. If you work for a fixed salary, a tax cut is not going to provide you any incentive to work harder or for longer hours. You'll get paid the same either way. And even those who are paid by the hour are often immune to such incentives (there are only so many hours in a week and not every job allows for overtime work).
I think that supply-siders often come from the world of law firms and investment banks, where year-end bonuses are tied to hours worked, and they forget that this compensation structure is actually pretty foreign to most people. Moreover, as a lawyer at a big law firm, I can tell you that even in this setting, incentives often don't work the way supply-siders seem to think they do. I work very long hours, as do all of my colleagues. But we do so because that's what the job demands. Many of us would gladly give back a portion of our salaries if it meant having more leisure time. If my tax rates were cut to zero tomorrow, I would not be incentivized to work even a single additional hour more than required to get my work done. Not all people are like me, of course. Some of my colleagues would work long hours even if they didn't have to, but these people, at least in my experience, are motivated to work hard not by the prospect of earning more at the end of the year, but because they are workaholics who enjoy what they do. These people would work just as hard if tax rates were increased dramatically.
Long story short, the relationship between tax rates and work incentives is much more tenuous and complicated than supply-siders would have you believe. All sorts of factors influence people's incentives to work, and there is little reason to believe that marginal tax rates--except in extreme cases--are even a particularly significant factor. And even when tax rates are a factor, it's not at all clear that people actually respond to them in the way that supply-side economics says they do. People like David Freddoso want you to believe that tax rates are some sort of monocausal explanation for everything. But they really aren't.
Well, okay. But this guy in this article — isn't he saying that he is willing to work harder where tax rates are lower? Is he working in Germany because tax rates there are lower than in Denmark? It sure looks like it to me, if you actually take ten seconds and look at what the Dane in the article said:This is pretty weak stuff. Clearly Freddoso thinks a high level of condescension can compensate for poor analysis. Notice that he is now reduced to citing a single anecdote from a single Danish worker as evidence of the obvious correctness of supply-side economics. The labor shortage itself, which was the subject of the article, is apparently of only tangential relevance."When you are at 63 percent tax, you don't look forward to the evaluation with the boss to get a raise," Sorensen said. "You look for more vacation or a training course in the tropics - something that you get the full benefit of."So he's saying that if you're going to stay in Denmark, you're going to demand more vacation (i.e. less work), because it isn't even worth working for more pay when tax rates are at 63 percent. He is saying that the high tax rate is an incentive to seek time off rather than higher pay.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but uh...isn't that precisely the point I was making?
It shouldn't surprise me that a liberal would thus ignore reality — it might cause him brain-freeze or something if he actually tries to digest the idea that incentives matter in economics.
Freddoso claims that I am ignoring the "reality" represented by this singularly insightful anecdote and suggests that my head would hurt if I tried to "digest the idea that incentives matter in economics." Okay, David, you win. Let's talk about incentives.
Central to supply-side orthodoxy is the notion that all (or least most) people respond to tax cuts in a similar way. Essentially everyone is the Dane quoted in the article. When taxes are high, they lack incentive to work hard. When taxes are lowered, they get to keep more of their income and respond by becoming more productive, innovative, entrepreneurial, etc.
I fully concede that some people are likely to respond to tax cuts in this way. But the equation is infinitely more complex than supply-siders would have us believe. First, the nature of the tax cut obviously matters. A cut from 90% to 30% is much more likely to affect incentives to work than a cut from, say, 33% to 28%.
Moreover, conservatives never seem to consider the fact that tax money is used to provide services which many people genuinely value. Though Denmark has high taxes, it also provides, among other things, universal health care and education, excellent public services, and state of the art infrastructure. Not everyone thinks that the portion of their income that goes to the government isn't worth working for. Denmark is a democracy, after all. It wouldn't have such high taxes if people didn't want it that way. And it's probably also worth noting that, despite its high taxes, the Danish economy does pretty well; it was recently voted the "most competitive and dynamic" economy in Europe by the World Economic Forum.
What supply-siders can't seem to internalize is that people respond to incentives differently. For instance, while some people may be incentivized to work harder by a tax cut (because they can keep more of what they generate), others might well be incentivized to work less, because they can now maintain the same standard of living while working less hours. It depends on whether you prioritize money or leisure.
Which brings me to another major problem with the supply-side narrative: many people--perhaps most--are not compensated for their labor in a way that is directly tied to their productivity or effort. If you work for a fixed salary, a tax cut is not going to provide you any incentive to work harder or for longer hours. You'll get paid the same either way. And even those who are paid by the hour are often immune to such incentives (there are only so many hours in a week and not every job allows for overtime work).
I think that supply-siders often come from the world of law firms and investment banks, where year-end bonuses are tied to hours worked, and they forget that this compensation structure is actually pretty foreign to most people. Moreover, as a lawyer at a big law firm, I can tell you that even in this setting, incentives often don't work the way supply-siders seem to think they do. I work very long hours, as do all of my colleagues. But we do so because that's what the job demands. Many of us would gladly give back a portion of our salaries if it meant having more leisure time. If my tax rates were cut to zero tomorrow, I would not be incentivized to work even a single additional hour more than required to get my work done. Not all people are like me, of course. Some of my colleagues would work long hours even if they didn't have to, but these people, at least in my experience, are motivated to work hard not by the prospect of earning more at the end of the year, but because they are workaholics who enjoy what they do. These people would work just as hard if tax rates were increased dramatically.
Long story short, the relationship between tax rates and work incentives is much more tenuous and complicated than supply-siders would have you believe. All sorts of factors influence people's incentives to work, and there is little reason to believe that marginal tax rates--except in extreme cases--are even a particularly significant factor. And even when tax rates are a factor, it's not at all clear that people actually respond to them in the way that supply-side economics says they do. People like David Freddoso want you to believe that tax rates are some sort of monocausal explanation for everything. But they really aren't.



18 Comments:
(What follows below is a comment that I prepared in response to your prior post on this subject. Your current post drills down further and makes some additional distinctions and assertions that I will have to consider. This was my reaction to your initial post).
I am not sure what the dispute is about here. People are rational so they try to maximize benefits and minimize costs (as we discussed re Iran). For most people work is a cost and their salary is a benefit. (In theory, people might view all the good that the government does with their taxes as a benefit, yet strangely enough even the most ardent liberals seldom volunteer to pay more than is required in taxes).
If you increase the tax rate, the cost stays the same but the benefit decreases. Common sense, backed by ample empirical evidence, suggests that this will affect behavior. How it affects behavior will vary by individual and depend on the costs and benefits of alternative options. If you have the option to move easily to a jurisdiction with lower tax rates, you might choose to do so, as apparently many Danes have. If you have the option of taking more of your income in non-taxable benefits, you might choose that. If you have the option of reducing your work hours in order to provide services directly to yourself (eg, perform your own childcare, cleaning, cooking, etc), you could do that. Or you might move some of your income “off the books” entirely if you can get away with it. Or you might just decide that the marginal benefit of working more hours is now just not worth the cost. Of course, not everybody will have attractive alternatives- some people will work the same hours for less money and some will have to work longer hours to replace the income that they have lost.
So you can nitpick Freddoso’s casual reference to “supply side 101,” but the Danish situation highlights some facts relevant to the debate over marginal tax rates, namely: (1) higher rates influence behavior and (2) the change in behavior may mean that the costs of higher rates are not borne exclusively, or even principally, by those targeted by the higher rates (ie, the rich). Are these facts dispositive of whether, say, the Bush tax cuts should be eliminated? Of course not, but let’s be honest. Supporters of higher rates do not tend to dwell on, or even acknowledge, these facts.
I don't think mls' summary is a given at all. That higher or lower tax rates change behavior is not a "fact" at all. It's a hypothetical. If mls or someone else will references a conclusive published study that clearly proves the hypothetical, I'll certainly listen.
I have one additional thought in response to your point that conservatives tend to overlook the benefits government provides with tax dollars. This is true, but it is also true that liberals tend to suggest that the vast majority of voters can enjoy the benefits of government while almost all of the cost is borne by a small minority. If this were true (or more precisely, if people believe this is true), there is little incentive to consider whether a particular government program or service is worth the cost.
This suggests to me that most government programs should be provided and paid for at the state level. That way, if the government is providing benefits that people value more than the taxes they are required to pay, it will attract people, and, if not, it will repel them. Absent this type of market-based check, government has little incentive not to provide any good or service that someone values, regardless of cost-benefit analysis (see, eg, the bridge to nowhere).
If conservatives would drop the knee-jerk opposition to taxes at the state level, and liberals would drop the knee-jerk insistence that government programs be financed at the federal level, maybe we could get somewhere.
Casual Observer- ok, but first you must provide me with a conclusive published study clearly proving that your views of human behavior are based only on conclusive published studies.
In spite of my silly nickname, I have a degree in economics and have worked as an international economist in the past, so I have some experience with economics.
You are right on the money AL. As you correctly pointed out, one of the central tenants in economics is that people respond to incentives. And, as you also correctly pointed out, conservatives think that everyone responds to economic incentives, and that everyone must respond to these incentives in the exact same way (i.e. as they do).
I would add that they believe anyone who does not respond to incentives in exactly the same way that they do must be a coward, a liar, or worse, a liberal.
Additionally, since they have no capacity to empathize with someone else, they immediately view those of us who can with deep suspicion, as if anyone and everyone who does not respond to dollars and cents as their primary motive must be a Communist.
Or a terrorist.
Or a whatever label fits their simplistic mindsets.
Yes, simplistic. I do not fear pissing these people off by calling them what they are: simpletons. They look at a supply and demand graph, watch that supply curve shift with their beloved supply-side tax cuts and blog about how brilliant they are because they moved the supply curve to the right and watched the glorious outcome of higher output at lower cost.
Nuance is lost on these morons. I am sick of "debating" them, so I'll leave that odious task to you. Thanks for the intelligent posting AL.
Casual Observer- ok, but first you must provide me with a conclusive published study clearly proving that your views of human behavior are based only on conclusive published studies.
You mean just like you did? Meet the raised bar yourself, then you can demand that others do the same.
mLS said... People are rational...
Is Denmark becoming depopulated? Are people immigrating or emigrating from there? (From this chart, immigration exceeds emigration ). Are the people of Denmark clamoring or voting for a lower tax rate?
In which state does David Freddoso live, a high tax one like NY, NJ, CT or a low tax one like MS, AL, LA? Has he considered moving to save on taxes? Will he be able to be more productive, e.g. write more articles in a low tax state? Did he at one time move from a low tax state to a high tax one? For example, California is high tax and received emigration from without and within the US depending on its job market.
People move for many reasons. Tax rates don't even have enough influence to register in these stats.
Mike
What I am struck by in this and many other conversations about economics, is the hidden assumption that the aggregate of decisions made for reasons of individual gain will always create the right result for the larger community.
In addition to A.L.'s objections of unaccounted complexity in individual decision making, I would add that even if we understood individual motivation better, that unit of measure alone is too small. Relative to the earth we live in, people live short lives of small scope, it is just the wrong scale to think about many problems.
"Central to supply-side orthodoxy is the notion that all (or least most) people respond to tax cuts in a similar way."
Here, I think, is where you err. My understanding is that suuply-side orthodoxy holds that AT THE MARGIN, at least some people respond to tax cuts in a similar way, and no one responds in the contrary way. (Sorry about the caps--I don't know how to italicize.)
The validity of supply-side theory--as with so much in economics--is vindicated if it is shown (and understood) that SOME people behave in that manner, and that no one else behaves in the opposite way. And I think this is very clearly the case.
By way of analogy, consider the case of my pencils, which I have been offering for sale at 25 cents each. If I reduce the price to 20 cents, does anyone dispute that sales will increase? No, no one does (although they may very well not increase dramatically). The great majority of buyers would buy the pencil at 25 cents just as readily as at 20 cents. But at the margin, there are some who now buy at the lower price who prieviously did not buy at the higher. And--here is the key point--there is absolutely no one who bought at 25 cents but now refuses to buy at 20 cents.
So, too, with people and their labor. Most, presumably, will work just as hard for just as many hours if their tax rates are increased. But some--perhaps a small percentage--will say the hell with it: I'll retire early; I'll start cheating on my taxes; I'll take more questionable sick leave; or I'll just spend more of my time daydreaming on the job. And absolutely no one on this planet will resolve to work harder during his workday because he is eager to give a bit more to the taxman.
"...the hidden assumption that the aggregate of decisions made for reasons of individual gain will always create the right result for the larger community."
I know of no one who makes that assumption, hidden or otherwise. It's just that we can't imagine any other means of directing individual decisions so that the aggregate of those decisions is closer to the "right result for the larger community."
neutral said... "The validity of supply-side theory--as with so much in economics--is vindicated if it is shown (and understood) that SOME people behave in that manner, and that no one else behaves in the opposite way. And I think this is very clearly the case."
I hate to say it but this statement is absolutely insane. I'm not an economist, but from the scientific point of view (or just a reasoned one), no theory can be considered in any way "vindicated" unless it at the very least correctly describes the overall qualitative behavior of a system.
Take the limiting case in which only one person actually responds in the way that your theory predicts, while the overwhelming majority of people respond in ways which your theory cannot explain. I think we can all agree that this theory would be considered a failure.
Moreover, oversimplified thought experiments like the one you mention about pencils are great for entertaining undergrads, but as A.L. has already pointed out, the real world is not so simple. People often respond in ways that economists would view as "irrational" simply because economic self-interest is not the deciding factor in every decision that a person makes in life.
The validity of supply-side theory--as with so much in economics--is vindicated if it is shown (and understood) that SOME people behave in that manner, and that no one else behaves in the opposite way. And I think this is very clearly the case.
Very clearly the case? What rubbish. It's just as plausible that someone would respond to a tax cut by working less. After all, they can now maintain the same standard of living while working less hours.
You write:
And absolutely no one on this planet will resolve to work harder during his workday because he is eager to give a bit more to the taxman.
Maybe not, but some people might work harder because they need the money. If the taxman takes a bigger chunk of your paycheck, you may need to work more hours to pay your bills and maintain your prior standard of living.
It's patently ridiculous to claim that no one would respond to a tax cut by working less or that no one would respond to a tax hike by working more. Indeed, depending on your circumstances and priorities, both of these things are perfectly rational responses.
I think you're just proving how weak the theoretical foundation of supply-side economics really is.
"What supply-siders can't seem to internalize is that people respond to incentives differently. For instance, while some people may be incentivized to work harder by a tax cut (because they can keep more of what they generate), others might well be incentivized to work less, because they can now maintain the same standard of living while working less hours. It depends on whether you prioritize money or leisure."
I beg your pardon? That distinction is not ignored in supply side economics, nor in any other form of it. It's both essential and crucial to any discussion of the labour/leisure trade off.
There is a simple answer though to the conundrum of which is the dominant effect: ie, do people work less as they keep more of their earnings or does keeping more of potential earnings make them work longer. That answer is that we don't actually care.
People get to take whichever it is that they want, income or leisure, and that is the point of the whole game, isn't it? To increase the fulfillment of human desires within the limited resources we have available to do so?
Tim Worstall said... "There is a simple answer though to the conundrum of which is the dominant effect: ie, do people work less as they keep more of their earnings or does keeping more of potential earnings make them work longer. That answer is that we don't actually care.
People get to take whichever it is that they want, income or leisure, and that is the point of the whole game, isn't it? To increase the fulfillment of human desires within the limited resources we have available to do so?"
I'm afraid that you're missing the point, Tim. No one is disputing that people will reap some benefit from a tax break. However, they will also potentially pay a cost - decreased public services. In other words, everyone is happy getting more out of their paycheck, but they may not be happy if that means the police department is underfunded or if their child dies the next day when a poorly-maintained bridge collapses.
The single most important (and controversial) prediction of supply-side economic theory is that you can literally have it both ways - you can get the personal benefit of a tax break, but at the same time, that tax break will spur economic growth and lead to higher government revenue.
The main argument in this thread is over whether or not people will respond in the way that supply-siders assume that they will - i.e. by dramatically increasing their productivity. If they don't, then the very premise upon which supply-side theory is founded does not hold water. So I'm afraid that the answer is that we really do care.
Anonymous's response to Tim Worstall is spot on. I second it in its entirety.
A.L., I think you're oversimplifying by concentrating on wages as the sole determinant for whether to work more or less.
From an economic growth and productivity standpoint, it's more interesting to look at the case of a business that's trying to decide whether to invest in a significant expansion of its capacity. For a business producing goods, this will require investing in more factory capacity and hiring more workers. For a business producing a service, this will merely require hiring more workers. In either case, the investment will likely make the economy grow. If there are economies of scale involved, the investment will likely increase productivity.
However, unlike a single worker, who may indeed be motivated by a variety of factors that don't necessarily value increased income as highly as additional leisure time, businesses are solely motivated by their return on investment. If a high marginal tax rate reduces its rate of return below some critical threshold, a business simply stops investing in expansion, and the business becomes stable at some particular size. That business then stops participating in the growth of the economy or any productivity increases.
The effects produced by this are far more likely to impact small businesses than large corporations. First, corporations pay corporate tax rates, while small businesses are often sole proprietorships or partnerships that pay individual tax rates. But those small businesses are responsible for a huge chunk of the growth of an economy, as well for the economy's overall productivity. So the psychology required to see supply-side effects is easier to come by than you think. This is why I think the hump in the Laffer Curve is more likely in the 45%-60% range for the top brackets, rather than so far to the right that you never see supply-side effects in real economies.
Having said that, I think your argument against Freddoso is correct--the effect seen in Denmark is a simple case of labor seeking its best return, rather than marginal supply-side effects. That doesn't mean that the supply-side effects can't actually show up in real economies, though.
"However, they will also potentially pay a cost - decreased public services."
Hmm. Not convinced personally. Over here in Europe the majority of spending is in fact income redistribution. That can be cut without any deterioration in public services.
But re supply side (a term I hate. In the US it has come to mean only discussing marginal tax rates which is absurd. Breaking up AT&T was supply side, it's as the name suggests, about reform of the supply side of the economy but still....) my main point there was that it isn't something that is not discussed by supply siders, the substitution effect etc.
Now, if you want to say that those who say that all tax cuts all the time always increase revenues are supply siders (my preferred name for them is idiots) then you might be right.
But the actual point about the Laffer Curve, about supply side (in the American sense) is that we know that some people will work less, take more leisure, while others will work harder in the face of a tax cut, just as the reverse will be true in the face of a tax hike.
That's actually implicit in the Laffer Curve itself: we're looking at the summed changes in activity by all in the economy. It's actually how we build the curve in the first place (when we're actually doing empirical work to to and find out where we are on said curve).
So far from your point about such trade offs betwen leisure and work being ignored by supply siders, they're actually part of the very process which goes to show that (at some tax rates, not all) there is actually to such supply side economics
I'm constantly fascinated by the concept that people will "work harder" at their jobs if given an incentive. In this instance, lower taxes which equals more in the wallet.
Do you really know people who believe they can work harder? Sure, you might earn a promotion, but aside from that, how much harder can anyone actually work?
And it implies that people are not working as hard as they can--which, in the real world, usually results in losing your job.
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