Giuliani on Torture
My latest post is up at Salon.
posted by A.L. at 2:07 PM
Thursday, October 25, 2007
Who Am I? For what it's worth, I'm a litigator at a large national law firm (at least until I figure out how to make a living doing this). Until then, I'll just have to go by A.L.
Recent Posts
- Another New Post
- The Raw Politics of Telecom Immunity
- New Post
- FISA Reform and The Honesty Gap
- Guest Blogging at Salon
- Iran and the Myth of Irrationality
- Campaigning by Leading
- Executive Power under a Clinton Presidency
- How to Legislate Like a Seven-Year-Old
- Bucking Republican Orthodoxy
7 Comments:
I like reading your posts *here*. Is there any chance you could repost your Salon posts here? Perhaps you could post a couple/few days after the Salon issue so satisfy any non-compete rules...?
I'm planning on reposting them all here at the end of the week, but I've to make sure it's kosher first.
Very well, class: pay attention. Today we will consider the following:
Incident Number A: The Drechsler Hangings
In 1944 seven German POWs were tortured until they confessed to the murder of a fellow U-boat sailor and prisoner, Werner Drechsler, at Papago Park POW camp in Arizona in March of that year. (The student is encouraged to use Google to look further into the matter.)
The seven were subsequently tried and convicted by a US court-martial, and were hanged at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas on August 25, 1945 (more than three months after Nazi Germany surrendered). The torture took place during the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt; President Harry S Truman personally approved the hangings. Neither President Roosevelt, President Truman, Attorneys General Francis Biddle and Tom Clark, nor Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson was criticized in any way. The Congress conducted no investigation, and took no action against any of these men.
Questions:
Was the treatment of these prisoners a blot on the nation’s history?
When did you first hear of Incident Number A?
Does Incident Number A sully the legacy of President Roosevelt? President Truman? The cabinet officers? The Congress? Why or why not?
Was the treatment of these prisoners more harsh than the treatment of those at Abu Ghraib? Less harsh? About the same?
Did these prisoners have a right of habeas corpus?
Research Project:
The New York Times published fifty front-page articles on Abu Ghraib. How many articles did the New York Times publish about Incident Number A?
I think this event is the subject of a book entitled "Martial justice: The last mass execution in the United States," by Richard Whittingham.
What strikes me is that the torture of the seven Germans was not in any way calculated to discover possible threats against American citizens, whereas the water-boarding Giuliani is talking about is done for that purpose.
Yer Pedagogue,
Nicely put, but for one thing, I think. IMHO ONLY, because I don't have time to check right now, I seem to recall that the Geneva Conventions weren't in effect until AFTER this WWII, & perhaps this episode. If that's true, would your argument be affected at all? I'm not sure otherwise what your point would be.
Do you also think the incarceration of American citizens of Japanese descent during the same period & the confiscation of their homes, businesses & personal property was justified because they shared the same ethnic origins as the suicide bombers of Pearl Harbor?
Anonymous, I take it you are all for waterboarding if it "discovers threats to American citizens?"
I cannot comprehend the wing-nutters who somehow believe torture produces RELIABLE information. That leaves me to conclude that it's more for the torturor's & his audience's sadistic gratification & perhaps the threat value. It certainly doesn't produce good info.
Dear Demon Princess:
There have been four Geneva Conventions dating back to the nieteenth century. The Third Geneva Convention was convened in 1929 and resulted in specific protections for prisoners of war. The Fourth Geneva Convention was signed in 1949. This convention reaffirmed the requirements of the first three conventions and provided protections for civilians during wartime.
I am puzzled by your question about "my argument." I make no argument of any kind, but simply pose questions intended to stimulate discussion. But to respond to your question, I hold no view that would be affected by the date of enactment of any particular provision of any Geneva Convention.
I personally believe that the treatment of Japanese-Americans by President Roosevelt and future Chief Justice Earl Warren (at the time the governor of California) were abominable. I want each student to evaluate today's alleged outrages against the background of the nation's history as it was carved out by iconic figures such as those two gentlemen. Thank you for your interest.
Yes, I am all for waterboarding if it uncovers threats to American citizens--or to any innocent non-cobatants. Not a close call.
It appears that the issue is in any event not a moral one in the eyes of Demon Princess. For her, it's simply a question of when a particular piece of paper was signed.
I suppose that, since Al Qaeda is not a signatory to any of the Conventions, the Princess is undisturbed by their mutiliations and decapitations.
Bill Clinton's CIA director, George Tenet, disagrees forcefully with the suggestion that "torture" (he spoke of "aggressive interrogation") does not produce reliable information. He says that it has produced information that is not only reliable, but has saved innocent lives. Is he a wingnut? Do you think he permtitted these interrogations to satisfy some sadistic impulse?
Post a Comment
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home